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Old 06-09-2018, 09:38 PM   #11
JLV
 
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Default Re: One Last Shot missile attack

Jim's compromise seems reasonable to me too.
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Old 06-09-2018, 10:53 PM   #12
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: One Last Shot missile attack

I don't think you should be forced to drop a missile weapon after your last shot.

It's a separate issue, but I also don't think you should be forced to fall to the ground and drop weapons other than a dagger in HTH. But perhaps that's a discussion for another day and another thread!
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Old 06-09-2018, 11:19 PM   #13
Kirk
 
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Default Re: One Last Shot missile attack

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Originally Posted by larsdangly View Post
I don't think you should be forced to drop a missile weapon after your last shot.

It's a separate issue, but I also don't think you should be forced to fall to the ground and drop weapons other than a dagger in HTH. But perhaps that's a discussion for another day and another thread!
My understanding of what HTH is in TFT *is* going to the ground! Otherwise it is just one-hex away fighting, whether dagger or fisticuffs or great sword.

I will say that some fighting systems seek to close and throw to the ground, and even inadvertently many fights end up there rather quickly. Boxing matches often show this, as when they tie up they have to be separated by the ref, or it becomes wrestling!

And if you have seen many high school fights, it's often one-two and down to the ground.
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Old 06-10-2018, 01:26 AM   #14
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Default Re: One Last Shot missile attack

My understanding of the HTH rules was always that it meant the two opponents have gone to the ground with one another and are rolling around hitting and stabbing at one another on the ground. Everything related to HTH in TFT agrees with that interpretation.

Of note, every martial art I've studied has taught techniques for both standing fisticuffs (which includes kicking) AND techniques for going to the ground with your opponent (kumi uchi leg presses, anyone?)

So to my mind, Unarmed combat involves two opponents engaged in your classic martial arts or boxing (which IS a martial art) fighting, while HTH involves getting down and dirty on the ground trying to eye-gouge, bite ears, and generally commit personal mayhem while rolling around in the dirt.
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Old 06-10-2018, 05:52 PM   #15
Steve Jackson
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Default Re: One Last Shot missile attack

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Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
The missile weapon MAY be dropped next turn in order to ready a new weapon.

JK
Option m, cited above, has that covered. Drop ready weapon and ready a new non-missile weapon.
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Old 06-10-2018, 06:09 PM   #16
Skarg
 
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Default Re: One Last Shot missile attack

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Originally Posted by Jim Kane View Post
And are you including the bowstring as part of the weapons functional duration after attack in your supposition regarding a crossbows' ability to perhaps "last longer"?

My feeling is: honed steel edges and bow strings - of any variety - do not tend to mix well... for the string that is. ;-)
No, I meant either bow or crossbow would probably be broken in one turn as missile weapons if used to Defend, but that maybe a bow would also be rendered useless as something to defend with faster than a crossbow would.

(Personally as a detail maniac, in my games I'd give fiddly odds for what exactly happens, but that's not what I was suggesting for the base TFT rule.)


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Originally Posted by Kirk View Post
I think this might work without undue consequences, and would allow a character that seriously wanted to retain his bow to do so in following turns, perhaps to disengage and run, etc.

My understanding was that dropping a weapon did not take an option and effectively used no combat time, so if the character wanted to change weapons, he could still do it in a subsequent turn without penalty for holding onto his bow.

The key, IMO, would be to be clear about not being able to load or use a missile weapon while engaged, cuz ain't nobody got time for that! :)

And, of course, retain the rule that if a missile weapon is used to parry, etc. it is destroyed in the process (perhaps clarify whether it can continue to used as such).
Yes, I agree with exactly what you wrote. Dropping anything is always a free action and doesn't need to be mentioned.

It seems really clear to me that the rule comes from original Melee, which was trying to explain to new folks in as few words as possible, and didn't want to have to elaborate. If Melee didn't say you had to drop your bow, people would think they could just stand and fight with a bow against people with swords (many computer games and some Hollywood films allow this, even though it shouldn't work out), so you'd need to add more text about that. But in an RPG context, it's good to not have to tell players they have to drop their bow, though they also shouldn't be able to reload and fire it while being attacked. I could see the exact rule/wording being a few different variations, but I'd think something like:

No reloading or firing missile weapons while engaged except for the last shot on the turn they become engaged.
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Old 06-10-2018, 06:29 PM   #17
Jim Kane
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Default Re: One Last Shot missile attack

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Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
Option m, cited above, has that covered. Drop ready weapon and ready a new non-missile weapon.
Yes, that is quite true; however, my suggestion of changing *must* to *may* was solely aimed - pardon the pun - at solving the immediate issue with as little editorial effort as possible; (i.e. 3 backspaces and the insertion of 2 substitute letters) while achieving your stated end-goal of leaving the option open to the player by changing the as-written mandatory obligation to an open-ended option by using the word *may* in place of *must*.

If *may* were employed in place of *must*, the sentence under (i) would then inform what the player can do, or not, with their bow; whereas, the sentence under (m), remaining as written, and when chosen, serves to inform what the player has elected to do with their bow - two significantly different states - with one (i) stating what a player could do (potential) and (m) what they are specifically doing (actual).

In other words, use both.

Does that suggestion not solve the issue of eliminating the obligation of being forced to drop the missile weapon, and achieve your goal of putting the option to defend with same, back in the hands of the players?

If not, I am failing to see how the problem would remain unsolved, and the goal not achieved. Would you clarify, if that is the case?

JK

Last edited by Jim Kane; 06-14-2018 at 08:20 PM. Reason: Typo
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Old 06-11-2018, 12:17 PM   #18
zot
 
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Default Re: One Last Shot missile attack

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Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
The proposal is just to delete the sentence in the option that requires the weapon to be dropped. So it would read:

(l) ONE-LAST-SHOT MISSILE ATTACK. If the figure had a missile weapon ready before it was engaged, it may get off one last shot. The missile weapon must be dropped next turn. (This option reflects the fact that you can almost always release an arrow at a charging enemy.)
I'm curious, do you still use the term "figure" to refer to people when you write game rules? This isn't a normal way to refer to a person and it always seemed like shorthand for "lead figure" to me.
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Old 06-12-2018, 01:04 AM   #19
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Default Re: One Last Shot missile attack

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Originally Posted by zot View Post
I'm curious, do you still use the term "figure" to refer to people when you write game rules? This isn't a normal way to refer to a person and it always seemed like shorthand for "lead figure" to me.
Just as a historical note: the term figure was used in DragonQuest and OE D&D as well... D&D was a growth from minis-wargames. The terminology shifted a lot in the 1980's.

Further, the term "figure" was used for notable persons in common speech for much of the 20th, and most of the 18th and 19th centuries.
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Old 06-14-2018, 12:25 PM   #20
Tolenkar
 
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Default Re: One Last Shot missile attack

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Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
Right now the rule says that you have to drop your weapon if you take the One Last Shot option.

I'm very inclined to delete that. It forces a decision that should be left tot he player. In fact, the archer would be more likely to hold onto his bow even if only to defend with!

Any counterarguments?
I agree that it should be optional. This would avoid having to drop the bow after being engaged by a low DX character that you plan to disengage from next turn.

It does lessen my tactic of making illusions of flying creatures and having them fly behind the enemy lines to specifically engage the archers and make them drop their magically enhanced bows.

Respectfully,
Tolenkar
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