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Old 03-05-2012, 11:01 AM   #1
Michael_Malus
 
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Default Clarification regarding what Filch and Sleight of Hand cover

Building a sneaky character (Essentially a fantasy rogue in a magepunk setting), I came across these two skills, which I haven't had any reason to use before.

Filch, DX/A, defaults to DX-5, Pickpocket-4, or Sleight of Hand-4.
Quote:
This skill lets you steal objects that are sitting in plain sight ... without being spotted. Roll against skill to shoplift, snatch documents off a desk, etc. If someone is actively watching the item you wish to snatch, you must win a Quick Contest of Filch vs. his Vision roll (or Observation skill, p. 211) to perform the theft unnoticed.
Sleight of Hand, DX/H, defaults to Filch-5.
Quote:
This is the ability to “palm” small objects ... When you use this skill to steal, you must win a Quick Contest of Sleight of Hand vs. the Vision roll or Observation skill of potential witnesses to perform the theft unnoticed.
Sleight of hand also takes all the specifically listed modifiers Filch does.

My question is: What, if anything, does Filch allow one to do that Sleight of Hand does not? In which situations would Filch be used instead of SoH?
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Old 03-05-2012, 11:14 AM   #2
Witchking
 
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Default Re: Clarification regarding what Filch and Sleight of Hand cover

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelMalus View Post
Building a sneaky character (Essentially a fantasy rogue in a magepunk setting), I came across these two skills, which I haven't had any reason to use before.

Filch, DX/A, defaults to DX-5, Pickpocket-4, or Sleight of Hand-4.


Sleight of Hand, DX/H, defaults to Filch-5.


Sleight of hand also takes all the specifically listed modifiers Filch does.

My question is: What, if anything, does Filch allow one to do that Sleight of Hand does not? In which situations would Filch be used instead of SoH?
IMHO...

Filtch is limited to quickly, subtling grabbing, palming, stealing small objects and getting away with it... (DX/A)

Slight of Hand (Dx?H) covers that...and doing Three Card Monte (Find the Lady, wheres the Lady <Fast Talk for the Patter tho>...and Juggling, and dealing cards from the bottom of a deck...and and and....

So again IMHO...Filtch does not cover anything that you cannot do with SOH...it is just easier to learn/cheaper...
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Old 03-05-2012, 11:17 AM   #3
Michael_Malus
 
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Default Re: Clarification regarding what Filch and Sleight of Hand cover

So you'd say that SoH subsumes Filch, similar to how Main-Gauche subsumes Knife skill? That was my main thought, but Filches -4 default from SoH seems to suggest otherwise.
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Old 03-05-2012, 11:22 AM   #4
Kromm
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Default Re: Clarification regarding what Filch and Sleight of Hand cover

Filch is basically the shoplifting skill. It lets you steal an object of any size that would fit under your clothes, in your pockets or pack, behind your back, etc. It's about knowing when to snatch something, and then how to interpose concealment between your swag and any observers. It could as easily be based on Per (knowing when people are looking) or Will (being brazen enough to move and not freeze up) as on DX.

Sleight of Hand is basically the prestidigitation skill. It lets you use just your fingers and palms to manipulate tiny objects – no larger than marbles, silver dollars, or playing cards – right before the eyes of any observers. It's about misdirection and "forces," and doesn't require any hiding place or concealment beyond your hands. It's pure manual dexterity.

You can use both to steal, but Filch lets you steal bigger items than Sleight of Hand, obviously. On the other hand, Sleight of Hand works even while you're nearly naked and under observation (like any number of movie scenes where a prisoner grabs a paperclip and hides it for later use). And Sleight of Hand lets you cheat at dice or cards, perform entertaining stage magic for money, etc. Overall, Sleight of Hand is the more versatile skill, but it's also harder. Filch is mostly a petty-criminal skill at the same general level of sophistication as Forced Entry.

Still, Filch isn't just a subset of Sleight of Hand. Filch lets you steal TVs by walking out with them behind your back, and allows you to snatch an order of fries off the counter and run out the door before anybody realizes you have them. Sleight of Hand is worthless for that stuff, because you can't conceal TVs and orders of fries in your palm, and doesn't cover the running away part at all.
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Old 03-05-2012, 11:23 AM   #5
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Default Re: Clarification regarding what Filch and Sleight of Hand cover

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Originally Posted by MichaelMalus View Post
So you'd say that SoH subsumes Filch, similar to how Main-Gauche subsumes Knife skill? That was my main thought, but Filches -4 default from SoH seems to suggest otherwise.
Hmm at work so no books....but if that is RAW...probably worth having both...

Never played a "dedicated" thief in GURPS...never had Filtch.

Have often played spy/rogue types and have often had SoH...often Pickpocket also (nice for planting evidence) but never Filtch...
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Old 03-05-2012, 11:37 AM   #6
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Default Re: Clarification regarding what Filch and Sleight of Hand cover

Whee, instant Krommquote.

That clears up the differences between Sleight of Hand and Filch, but your description there makes me wonder how far Filch overlaps with Holdout, especially given the rest of the working on Filch.

Quote:
The GM might require rolls against .. Holdout to conceal stolen objects afterward
Is it broadly that Filch covers concealing the item for the first turn or so, while Holdout covers later rolls, or that Filch covers concealment without "preparation", while someone using Holdout has spent more than the minimum possible time concealing it?
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Old 03-05-2012, 11:41 AM   #7
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Default Re: Clarification regarding what Filch and Sleight of Hand cover

Holdout is needed if you want to carry something around. Filch is about grabbing it unseen and running off. It's a GM call because situations will vary. Snatching an order of spicy wings off the counter and bolting is just a Filch roll. Swiping documents off the detective's desk and into your briefcase is Filch followed by Holdout.
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Old 03-05-2012, 11:45 AM   #8
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Default Re: Clarification regarding what Filch and Sleight of Hand cover

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelMalus View Post
Filch, DX/A, defaults to DX-5, Pickpocket-4, or Sleight of Hand-4.
I felt like there was enough overlap in these for me to change Filch to a Technique defaulting to either of the other 2 skills in my house rules.
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Old 03-05-2012, 11:53 AM   #9
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Default Re: Clarification regarding what Filch and Sleight of Hand cover

Shoplifters who have Filch and not Holdout tend to be the subject of "Funniest Criminals" type shows, especially when caught on camera with a frozen turkey under their shirt or something.

Holdout lets you wander around in the store with it hidden on your person somewhere, and gives you a chance to keep it hidden even if the security guards pat you down. Filch involves trying to keep it on the other side of your body from the security camera without walking funny - you can try to avoid suspicion on your way to the door with Filch, but if the store cop actually checks you out with his Observation skill, your Filch won't contest it like Holdout would.

You might be able to argue Smuggling instead of Holdout if you have a wheelchair, motorized scooter, or huge baby carriage and you're hiding it inside the framework somewhere.
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