In Nomine Second Edition: What have we learned?

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by robkelk

The GM is also free to decide how the invoked Superior manifests, and how he/she/it reacts. I usually use the CD of the successful invocation roll as a guide.

Invoking Eli in Manhattan: success, CD 6. The nearest cab pulls over and the doors open on their own - guess who's driving?

Invoking Marc in Manhattan: success, CD 1. Your cellphone rings.

(Invoking Jordi in Manhattan: you'd better be in Central Park... <g>)

Or the sewers ... man, those albino 'gators look familiar ...

[Matthias Wasser]

Originally Posted by Jason

The above suggestion kind of implies that everybody who's distantly and indirectly complicit in the evils of the world is going to Hell, though -- which, let's face it, potentially includes everyone in a first-world, capitalist society who isn't a die-hard activist or living off subsistence farming -- which means that Hell would REALLY be winning the war for souls.

Well, Hell should be winning the war for souls wherever liberal individualism has been established as the main moral yardstick. But then those who live up to their full selfish-creative potential certainly aren't the majority either. Most people just lamely drift around, taking the safe, low-effort, pleasant route whenever possible. Damnation should be a hand down, not a hand out.

(That said, I do think there might be something to say for Destiny being something you're born with and Fate being something you choose, a living your life as a sort of I AM to the world. Destroy parallelism wherever possible.)

I think the game would be better served by making EVERYTHING out of 6 levels, rather than some things out of more or less. Charisma, Characteristics, Toughness -- everything that has multiple levels should be out of 6 for the sake of thematic unity and mechanical consistency. If you want to make it easier for humans to exert that kind of importance through Status, I'd say a better bet is to make it prohibitively expensive for celestials to get high-Status Roles.

I'd rather Characteristics be allowed to go above 12 (and thus Forces above 6); but both options would require revamping the basic task resolution system (which can only be to the good.)

[Whitelaughter]

Sorry about the delay in answering this....

Originally Posted by Jason

This seems kind of confusing to me. Why introduce such dramatic asymmetry in how celestials work? It seems like it just adds extra layers of mechanics.

Currently, every choir/band has it's own mechanic. The ethereals have about 30. Sorcerers have one more.
Small 's' superiors have yet another - the ability to place Discord into a Servant for CD hours. It is similar to the Lilim Geas ability: and you could for example place a Geas you owe into a Servant, and then they'd have to obey the Lilim/Dominican.
Crunching these 2 mechanics into a single demonic mechanic reduces the number of mechanics in IN, as all demons, renegades, sorcerers etc would be using the same mechanic.
Further, it explains why the demons have powers - currently, they don't make a lot of sense: they are Fallen, *broken* angels, why do they have any powers at all? Spending their time trapped in Hell exploring their Discords and the effects they have on Servants is a believable reason why the demons burst out with nifty new abilities.

[dataweaver]

Someone suggested the possibility of a third characteristic in each domain. I submit that this already exists: the Forces themselves form a third characteristic of a sort. What I'd do would be to have each Force provide only two characteristic points instead of four, but double the number of Forces that you have to work with. That puts the number of Forces that you have in a given Realm on the same scale as the Characteristics that they supply (i.e., 1 to 12), allowing you to more consistently use them interchangeably. Or keep the total number of Forces the same, so that Forces and characteristics both operate on a scale of 1 to 6. One way or the other, put characteristics and Forces on an equal footing.

I would generally call upon Forces in rolls that pertain to "saving throws" and other passive tests of the Realm, whereas characteristic-based rolls pertain to actions (or reactions) that the character engages in. In effect, Corporeal Forces would double as physical fortitude (will you black out while being suffocated?); Ethereal Forces would double as cognitive fortitude (can you concentrate on the task at hand with all these distractions?); Celestial Forces would double as spiritual fortitude (can you maintain your composure despite being furious or terrified?). If I had to rename them, I'd probably call them Stamina, Focus, and Composure. That said, I'd rather not rename them.

[Omegonthesane]

Originally Posted by Whitelaughter

Currently, every choir/band has it's own mechanic. The ethereals have about 30. Sorcerers have one more.
Small 's' superiors have yet another - the ability to place Discord into a Servant for CD hours. It is similar to the Lilim Geas ability: and you could for example place a Geas you owe into a Servant, and then they'd have to obey the Lilim/Dominican.
Crunching these 2 mechanics into a single demonic mechanic reduces the number of mechanics in IN, as all demons, renegades, sorcerers etc would be using the same mechanic.

Nitpick: How, in any remote fashion, would this have an effect on Sorcerers? Sorcerers are humans and thus cannot even have capital-D Discord, let alone impose it on others.
Broader point: Removing demonic Resonances removes the distinctions between Bands to a massive degree, and frotzes the current Fall mechanics - under which caking on Discord is in fact how you prevent your Fall in the short term, since it gets rid of dissonance.

Further, it explains why the demons have powers - currently, they don't make a lot of sense: they are Fallen, *broken* angels, why do they have any powers at all? Spending their time trapped in Hell exploring their Discords and the effects they have on Servants is a believable reason why the demons burst out with nifty new abilities.

That's explained already. They're severed from the Symphony; as celestials, they can thus force their own false mini-symphony on the area around them, granting them their diabolical resonance and dissonance condition. It's implied that angelic dissonance is actually the start of this process - you lose a little of your touch with the Symphony, so start humming notes, and (esp. for Elohim) next thing you know you hear nothing but your own notes.

Originally Posted by dataweaver

<Making Forces give 2 stats per Force and allowing up to 12 Forces per realm, thereby making Forces a third 1-12 stat

Interesting idea. Since we're talking about ideas for a theoretical new edition here, the following aren't necessarily problems, but they are consequences:
- Songs, being a (Skill)+Forces roll, would have a 2-18 target number range; while 12 (6, under old math) Forces is a much more extreme investment than 12 in a stat, this still means it is possible to crank Songs to an auto-pass without being crazy minmaxed. This isn't necessarily a bad thing; my local campaign GM houseruled the Singing skill as adding to *all* Song rolls, and while this has led to me as local shameless minmaxer joking that it should automatically be at 6 in all characters, it hasn't broken the game by any means.
- Lots more (maximum) Essence - twice as much, in fact - per person/celestial/thing.
- Calculations involving Forces get frotzed a little - e.g. Disturbance of manifesting, Essence needed to raise a Mummy, how many three-course dinners you can have in the middle of a celestial battle to the soul-death
- Kyriotates become potentially a lot more powerful - if there still exists anything with only 1 Force under this model, then the now 18-Force starting PCs (in a world where 36 Forces is the dreaded 12s-in-everything number) can possess twice as many pigeons.
- Under the current exact rules as written, Kyrioates of Animals become <insert expletive of choice> ridiculously terrifying. Assuming a straight conversion, on average (Corp Forces * Total Forces) will be 4 times as much under the proposed model as under the current rules. So, instead of 36 swarms of wasps, the Corporeal-heavy swarm of horrible death possesses 144 swarms, which slows combat to a crawl if nothing else if the merest fraction of same enter one place.

[dataweaver]

Also, how many Body/Mind/Soul Points you have potentially goes up considerably, nearly (but not quite) doubling if the formula doesn't change. I was also figuring that "Forces + Characteristic + Skill" rolls would go away entirely: all rolls would be either "Characteristic + Skill" or "Forces + Skill".

Certainly, the balance would shift.

EDIT: Actually, the number of Mind and Soul Hits would double; the number of Body Hits would go up anywhere from x2 (for a human without Toughness) to x1.5 (for a Vessel/6). In proportional terms, there's less of a gap between low-Vessel Body Hits and high-Vessel Body Hits.

[JCD]

This was brought up earlier in the thread, but no one took a stab at it.

One of the annoying things I find, particularly when I am dealing with Angelic resonances is having to constantly refer to the CD chart.

Does anyone know of a better way to do this? Malakim, in particular, are annoying. Or do most you you just wing it or memorize the tables?

[Jason]

Originally Posted by JCD

This was brought up earlier in the thread, but no one took a stab at it.

One of the annoying things I find, particularly when I am dealing with Angelic resonances is having to constantly refer to the CD chart.

Does anyone know of a better way to do this? Malakim, in particular, are annoying. Or do most you you just wing it or memorize the tables?

I have a sheet on hand with all the tables. I also list the appropriate chart on a custom character sheet for each Choir, so my players can check the result themselves, and ask me specifically for what they want to know.

I'm not sure how (or whether) I'd change this in a hypothetical 2nd edition. On the one hand, I do rather like loose, interpretive systems, so perhaps the table can be done away with entirely and replaced with a generic "more info with higher check digit." On the other hand, some of the differences within a single Choir's resonance are pretty significant; you get totally different results with a Malakite rolling a 6 vs. a 5, and you can ask entirely different questions with an Elohite rolling a 6 vs. a 4. Plus, there are plenty of gamers out there who really love tables, I guess.

My offhand suggestion for now: In general, for results 1-5 of any angelic resonance, give more information of the appropriate type for a higher CD. Players might request specific info -- like a Mercurian rolling a 1 asking for just the target's nickname, or just the kind of neighborhood the target came from -- or, barring that, the GM could make a judgment call and give the info that seems best suited to move the plot along. On a roll of 6 or higher, the result is "all that you'd get for rolling a 5, and also this awesome bonus info." Most of those are built into the resonance already...

For Seraphim, that's the Truth.
For Cherubim, that's the long-term safety of the attuned.
For Ofanim, that's an extra movement-related action.
For Elohim, that's how the target would react to a specific action (and I might even say only give one action for 6, or 2 for CDs above 6).
For Malakim, that's the target's deepest aspirations for good/evil, and whether it's a Balseraph.
For Kyriotates, that's an automatic sense whether possessing a target for any length of time is likely to screw up the target's life.
For Mercurians, that's knowing all that there is to know about the target's history.

[Whitelaughter]

Originally Posted by Whitelaughter

Crunching these 2 mechanics into a single demonic mechanic reduces the number of mechanics in IN, as all demons, renegades, sorcerers etc would be using the same mechanic.

Originally Posted by Omegonthesane

Nitpick: How, in any remote fashion, would this have an effect on Sorcerers? Sorcerers are humans and thus cannot even have capital-D Discord, let alone impose it on others.

Discord/Disadvantage; potato/potato. Turfing the distinction improves the game.

Originally Posted by Omegonthesane

Broader point: Removing demonic Resonances removes the distinctions between Bands to a massive degree,

Yes, just as if 100 unique humans jumped off a skyscraper, the resulting street pizzas would very similar. Falling - well, hitting the ground - ain't pretty.
(Hmmm, I wonder if my write up of the demon of street pizza on the pyramid boards survived anywhere...)
However, you'll note that I specified that they could only project their band specific Discords - so only Calabim are damaging you, only Habbalah inflicting emotions, only Lilim binding geases etc.

Originally Posted by Omegonthesane

and frotzes the current Fall mechanics - under which caking on Discord is in fact how you prevent your Fall in the short term, since it gets rid of dissonance.

Angels are supposed to be immortal. Any angel who is using Discord to avoid Falling is doomed; sooner or later they're going to get the choir specific slapdown and have their dissonance checks crippled.
The way to deal with dissonance is:
a) don't get it, and failing that
b) work it off immediately. There are numerous ways to do so.

Originally Posted by Omegonthesane

That's explained already. They're severed from the Symphony; as celestials, they can thus force their own false mini-symphony on the area around them, granting them their diabolical resonance and dissonance condition. It's implied that angelic dissonance is actually the start of this process - you lose a little of your touch with the Symphony, so start humming notes, and (esp. for Elohim) next thing you know you hear nothing but your own notes.

Which makes about as much sense as saying that if a human takes brain damage and slices off their thumbs, they'll acquire new superpowers. Crippling yourself...cripples you. That's what the demons have done to themselves.
Besides, remember that angels are made - there's zero reason for an archangel to allow the potential for the demonic resonances in any angel they build.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Whitelaughter

Besides, remember that angels are made - there's zero reason for an archangel to allow the potential for the demonic resonances in any angel they build.

Demons are made, too, though ... including a Band that never actually starts as angels...

I think I get a better sense now of your aim in proposing replacing demonic resonances with outwardly-imposable discords, but I think it makes a better house rule than an across-the-board official change. My main concern is one of symmetry: By giving angels and demons both access to a "resonance" with parallel mechanics, and defining them as "perceiving the symphony" versus "imposing a symphony," we get a setting where it's a lot less clear who's "right." Both have some claim over what reality is, and what it should be. Defining demons as nothing more than very broken angels leaves us with something a little more lopsided -- good for a scenario in which that's precisely what you're going for, but problematic for a canonic setting that's meant to be readable multiple different ways (and in which Hell has a scarily credible chance of winning someday).

That said, this conversation recalls for me my big issue with one lack of symmetry in resonances: Kyriotates using Will. I'm more comfortable with Lilim using Perception (as they're still imposing Geases, so they kind of straddle the line between angelic and demonic resonances already), but there's something very weird to me about angels having a power that is more commonly associated with demonic possession.