Gabriels dissonance Condition.

[PenitentDemon]

HEres a few questions.

If a Gabrielite accidently punishes an innocent, or simply applys EXCESSIVE punishment, does that also cause dissonance. (E.g. Crippling a grade school bully for stealing lunch money)

If a sinner a Gabrielite has been stalking should visibly and sincerely repent, due to unforseeable circumstances (Humans have free will ater all) does that satisfy things or does he need to find another sinner scat?

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by PenitentDemon

HEres a few questions.

If a Gabrielite accidently punishes an innocent, or simply applys EXCESSIVE punishment, does that also cause dissonance. (E.g. Crippling a grade school bully for stealing lunch money)

The way I read it, these aren't Judgment angels, so there's no stricture to "let the punishment fit the crime." Those who are cruel must be punished, soon. It's up to the angel on the scene to decide what's appropriate.

Accidentally punishing an innocent does two things. One, it means the angel still has to find someone cruel within the original time frame set. And two, it may have made the angel detectable as "cruel" to his or her fellows! You may not have gotten dissonance, but you have definitely bought trouble, and maybe an Outcasting if Gabriel finds out ...

If a sinner a Gabrielite has been stalking should visibly and sincerely repent, due to unforseeable circumstances (Humans have free will ater all) does that satisfy things or does he need to find another sinner scat?

"The dissonance vanishes once justice has been served," according to Gabriel's writeup. That's open to interpretation, but I would say that a full, sincere repentence counts as justice having been served ... they've effectively inflicted their own punishment! (The same logic is applied in the Angelic Players Guide to Malakim -- the angel must destroy evil, but a Redemption is a much more permanent destruction than simply killing the vessel.)

That said, these are Fire angels, which means the clock never stops ticking. They still have to find another sinner ... it's just that they get their time re-set to do it.

[Whitelaughter]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

the angel still has to find someone cruel within the original time frame set.

No; the clock starts ticking when they met a cruel person. (Otherwise, every Gabrielite in Heaven would Fall like stones). If their target wasn't actually cruel, then the clock never started.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by Whitelaughter

No; the clock starts ticking when they met a cruel person. (Otherwise, every Gabrielite in Heaven would Fall like stones). If their target wasn't actually cruel, then the clock never started.

Since the target was innocent, I was assuming that their clock had already started and they'd made a mistake as to whom it applied. (Also unlikely, given the resonance, but no one's perfect.)

That said, I did make that mistake later in my statement. Apologies.

[PenitentDemon]

Good point

similarly a sheddim in hell doesnt risk gaining dissonance. as he doestn have a host. (though hes probaly pretty miserable because of it)

[Matthias Wasser]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

"The dissonance vanishes once justice has been served," according to Gabriel's writeup. That's open to interpretation, but I would say that a full, sincere repentence counts as justice having been served ... they've effectively inflicted their own punishment! (The same logic is applied in the Angelic Players Guide to Malakim -- the angel must destroy evil, but a Redemption is a much more permanent destruction than simply killing the vessel.)

I'd say that the logic of the cases is fundamentally different; repentance eliminates evil but doesn't punish it. (Excluding the existence of an actual Celestial Plane, all that was in need of correction in Hitler ceased to exist when he died, but his suicide is still colloquially referred to as an escape from justice.) Conversely, the Gabrielite mission is itself cruel but this doesn't make it self-contradictory, as it would if the mission were to eliminate cruelty; it just means that Gabrielites must often punish themselves and each other.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Matthias Wasser

Conversely, the Gabrielite mission is itself cruel but this doesn't make it self-contradictory, as it would if the mission were to eliminate cruelty; it just means that Gabrielites must often punish themselves and each other.

I don't think I buy this part. The job would then be doubly dissonant for Elohim, and Superiors 3 is pretty clear that punishing the cruel does NOT need to be cruel in its execution (though there's always a danger of veering that way).

One of my favorite examples of "burning the cruel" from the books (wish I could remember which) is of an Ofanim chasing someone on the run from the law, finally catching up with the person, and then just leaving them be. Scaring the hell out of them was enough to count as "burning" them. There's no question in this dissonance condition of too MUCH or too LITTLE punishment (probably another reason Dominic is so hostile toward Gabrielites). The main rules of thumb for many may just be "enough to avoid dissonance" and "not so much that you're getting recognized as cruel yourself."

[Methariel]

Well, I think repentance is a punishment in and of itself. A truly repentant person is not only "sorry 'bout killing your dog", but he shares the grief of his victim and is profoundly sad about having brought another person pain. And since repentance is emotionally painful, I'd consider it valid as "serving justice".

Although it's maybe a language thing, but I never seem to be able to get a decent definition for "cruelty" in the first place.

M.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Methariel

Although it's maybe a language thing, but I never seem to be able to get a decent definition for "cruelty" in the first place.

I'd say cruelty is taking pleasure in the pain of others. Gabrielites can take pleasure in fulfilling their nature, or be passionate about punishing the cruel, but there's a fine line between either of those and actually enjoying the pain itself. It's like the difference between punishing your kids because you like "win" (which is kind of messed up) vs. punishing them because you know they need to learn a lesson (which might eventually lead to positive feelings around being a good parent).

[PenitentDemon]

it mentioned somewhere that they bend over backwards to avoid being cruel somewhere, even that sometiems they'll keep track of how many blows they give someone to make it the same basic amount of pain.

oh curious?

a 3 force reliever of fire withotu a vessel , whats SHE to do when she spots a cruel person? makes it hard to punish even a normal human.