Gunslinger, Aim, Bracing, and other questions

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Common house rule, but retroactive. Acc was full value.

IIRC it was RAW in High-Tech and Compendium 2?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Ragitsu

Gunslinger really shines with beam/laser weaponry and/or if you adopt the Acc figures from Third Edition.

Even using lasers isn't enough to make it all that great, generally, because you only get more than +6 from the cannon-sized ones (and I'm not sure whether even that is intended).

On the other hand, for power armors that run around with squad support weapons, well, not taking a -8 penalty for a Move and Attack? That's pretty nice.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

IIRC it was RAW in High-Tech and Compendium 2?

I will have to check on HT. I always took the C2 suggestion as more of a blessed house rule. Basic Set was definitely full Acc. HT was full of advice on flinch and buck fever and other penalties but I don't recall Acc/2 there.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

I will have to check on HT. I always took the C2 suggestion as more of a blessed house rule. Basic Set was definitely full Acc. HT was full of advice on flinch and buck fever and other penalties but I don't recall Acc/2 there.

Yes, I suppose I was unclear. I should have said that the 3e Accs were too high, which was fixed with optional rules in later books.

[ThePooBurner]

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

Incidentally, I don't think anyone was saying you can't get the braced bonus for the first turn of aim. Non-Gunslingers can do that anyway. The question was wether you get the bonus even if you don't brace, with is a solid no.

Keep in mind, Gunslinger is not the "I'm a better aim than you" advantage. It's intended simply to make you better with quick snap-shots, able to place rounds accurately even without spending time to aim, and even while on the move, like in an action movie. It doesn't help aimed fire because that's not what it's intended for. It's for the guy who walks down the dusty main street, plugging snap-shots into the hired guns on the balconies, before winning the quick-draw showdown with the Big Bad. Or the guy who leaps in through the window pouring rounds into mooks as he tumbles over the table before the big fists-and-kicks battle with their boss.

But that is sort of my point. It's supposed to be an advantage the Gunslinger has over the non-slinger. A slinger is a slinger because they have better hand-eye coordination allowing them to be accurate naturally rather than having to make an effort. So when they do make the effort to aim that better hand eye coordination *should* still provide a benefit over the non-slinger.

Not only that, but i am mostly talking about when using RAW in just the basic set. We bought HT and Gunfu to see if they would elucidate on the matter, but they didn't. We don't want something that is to over the top. We are supposed to be less than cinematic (for instance ATR, ETS, and all other "enhaced" advantages are off limits, which the new rules in HT and GF are largely geared towards). We are just supposed to be *good*. We are also duel wielders. I suppose if we wanted to be technical we could just claim Akimbo allows us to brace while duel wielding? Hah.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by ThePooBurner

But that is sort of my point. It's supposed to be an advantage the Gunslinger has over the non-slinger. A slinger is a slinger because they have better hand-eye coordination allowing them to be accurate naturally rather than having to make an effort. So when they do make the effort to aim that better hand eye coordination *should* still provide a benefit over the non-slinger.

A gunslinger gets the benefits of Gunslinger because they have Gunslinger. I am unconvinced that it's ever a realistic advantage, or was intended to ever be a realistic advantage.

Originally Posted by ThePooBurner

Not only that, but i am mostly talking about when using RAW in just the basic set. We bought HT and Gunfu to see if they would elucidate on the matter, but they didn't. We don't want something that is to over the top. We are supposed to be less than cinematic (for instance ATR, ETS, and all other "enhaced" advantages are off limits, which the new rules in HT and GF are largely geared towards). We are just supposed to be *good*. We are also duel wielders. I suppose if we wanted to be technical we could just claim Akimbo allows us to brace while duel wielding? Hah.

If you're non-cinematic, you probably shouldn't take Gunslinger. Take around 20 skill instead...and aim if at all possible, and don't shoot on the run if you can help it.

[Exxar]

Originally Posted by ThePooBurner

I don't agree with the Bracing and Scopes not being automatic with the first second on Aim with Gunslinger. To address this i will work from the text of the Advantage itself, as i think it provides a pretty clear stance when examined. The wording is as follows:

-snip-

When firing single shots (RoF 1-3) from a one-handed weapon, you get the accuracy bonus of your weapon without the need for an Aim maneuver. When using a two-handed weapon or automatic fire, you get half the Accuracy bonus (round up) without the need to Aim. If you do Aim, you always get full Acc, and bracing, scopes, and additional seconds of Aim provide the usual benefits.

I'm afraid you misinterpreted the quote because you didn't separate the bolded compound sentence into two simple sentences properly. The comma in that italicized part acts as a separator between the two; one of them is "If you do Aim, you always get full Acc" and the other is "Bracing, scopes, and additional seconds of Aim provide the usual benefits."

The end result depends on if you're firing a one-handed weapon at RoF 1-3, or if you're firing a two-handed weapon or at a RoF greater than 3.

In case of a one-handed weapon at RoF 1-3:
You get the full Acc bonus without aiming. On your first round of aiming you get a +1 bonus from the scope, and another +1 on each round after that up to the maximum bonus of your scope. After you've aimed for a number of rounds equal to your maximum scope bonus, you get an additional +1 bonus on each of the first two following rounds of aiming. You can still aim after that to keep your aim on the target, but you don't get any further benefits.

In case of a two-handed weapon or firing at RoF greater than 3:
You get 1/2 of the Acc bonus without aiming. On your first round of aiming you get the full Acc bonus. After that, the behavior is identical to the one described for a one-handed weapon at RoF 1-3, starting at the bonuses for scope.

The bracing rules state that you get +1 to your Acc if firing a braced weapon. That means the weapon has to be braced in the moment of firing, it is irrelevant if it's braced during aiming. However, RAW makes no assertions if bracing a weapon is a free action or if it requires a Ready maneuver. That would depend on the weapon being used and the stance you're using it in. It could range from a free action that doesn't interrupt your aim to a Ready maneuver that does.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Originally Posted by ThePooBurner

But that is sort of my point. It's supposed to be an advantage the Gunslinger has over the non-slinger. A slinger is a slinger because they have better hand-eye coordination allowing them to be accurate naturally rather than having to make an effort. So when they do make the effort to aim that better hand eye coordination *should* still provide a benefit over the non-slinger.

But that's not the equivelant of Gunslinger. That's the equivelant of putting the points into skill, instead.

It's a cinematic advantage, intended to emulate a cinematic effect, that of a shooter that doesn't need to aim to be accurate (And yet, isn't supernaturally accurate when he does aim). It's not a realistic advantage, so it's not going to compare well to anything in real life like that.

[towishimp]

Originally Posted by Phoenix_Dragon

But that's not the equivelant of Gunslinger. That's the equivelant of putting the points into skill, instead.

It's a cinematic advantage, intended to emulate a cinematic effect, that of a shooter that doesn't need to aim to be accurate (And yet, isn't supernaturally accurate when he does aim). It's not a realistic advantage, so it's not going to compare well to anything in real life like that.

Exactly. Real "fancy shooters" like the ones in the youtube links have very high skill and some high-level techniques, not the Gunslinger advantage. I play skilled shooters in most every campaign that I can, and the only ones where my GM lets me have Gunslinger are ones where the other characters have superpowers or cinematic abilities.

[Kale]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

If you're non-cinematic, you probably shouldn't take Gunslinger. Take around 20 skill instead...and aim if at all possible, and don't shoot on the run if you can help it.

Or take a bunch of levels in the Close Quarters Battle technique... @:-)