Shotguns and RoF... is there a better way?

[kdtipa]

I wasn't thinking of 3e. But there is effectively a penalty for the second and third shot the way this is handled. If you have two targets, and fire two shots in the same round, the number of pellets that hit on the second target are going to be much smaller with the rules as I understand them after this thread. If the number of pellets that hit are a result of the margin of success, and you don't succeed by at least 9, none of the pellets from the second shot will hit. This seems unrealistic, considering the ability of real world shooters to use shotguns and hit as many as 6 different moving targets before they hit the ground (I think 6 was the record I heard of). I'm pretty sure they're firing more than 1 shot per second. And yeah, they're not dealing with combat conditions, but I don't think the current rules make sense when you consider the situation of real world rapid target shooting.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by kdtipa

I wasn't thinking of 3e. But there is effectively a penalty for the second and third shot the way this is handled.

No, there isn't. The rules do not privilege any shots fired in Rapid Fire! If it matters which shot hit which target, you have to roll randomly.

If you have two targets, and fire two shots in the same round, the number of pellets that hit on the second target are going to be much smaller with the rules as I understand them after this thread.

There's two ways to do this: Spraying Fire and Ranged Rapid Strike. Either way you make separate attack rolls for each target at the same effective skill; it's just as likely to hit the second target with the same number of pellets as the first. There is no difference.

And yeah, they're not dealing with combat conditions, but I don't think the current rules make sense when you consider the situation of real world rapid target shooting.

The rules don't really care about target shooting. To the extent that they do, you get significant bonuses. As I posted up thread skeet-shooting, as I understand it, is at +9!

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

There's two ways to do this: Spraying Fire and Ranged Rapid Strike. Either way you make separate attack rolls for each target at the same effective skill; it's just as likely to hit the second target with the same number of pellets as the first. There is no difference.

Actually, Spraying Fire does not treat all targets equally. Targets after the first suffer progressive penalties to rcl.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Actually, Spraying Fire does not treat all targets equally. Targets after the first suffer progressive penalties to rcl.

Yes, sorry about that. I'm not sure it's a problem though, I'm pretty sure that you'd have to use the number of shells (as opposed to the pellets) to determine if Spraying fire is possible, in which case it makes sense that the Rcl should increase. Furthermore it's not possible with Rof 3x2000 12ga with #9 Birdshot. Rather you'd use Rapid Strike to fire a shell at each target, which is the same roll for each target.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

From seeing film of it, I assumed shooters aim at where the targets are going to be flying through. The course is always the same regulation size with clearly delineated stations of set range, yes? And the targets are shot at a constant speed, yes? And are all the same size? I don't see any difference from other "known distance" type courses. I think you'd need to keep the bonus. According to the OP it is apparently really really easy and the bonus needs to be big.

It would also match the OP's point that skeet shooting is really difficult at first but get a lot easer relatively quickly, i.e you start to correct for the known distances/trajectories etc. But in trial and error way rather than the sniper's carefully worked shot map.

Originally Posted by kdtipa

I wasn't thinking of 3e. But there is effectively a penalty for the second and third shot the way this is handled. If you have two targets, and fire two shots in the same round, the number of pellets that hit on the second target are going to be much smaller with the rules as I understand them after this thread. If the number of pellets that hit are a result of the margin of success, and you don't succeed by at least 9, none of the pellets from the second shot will hit. This seems unrealistic, considering the ability of real world shooters to use shotguns and hit as many as 6 different moving targets before they hit the ground (I think 6 was the record I heard of). I'm pretty sure they're firing more than 1 shot per second. And yeah, they're not dealing with combat conditions, but I don't think the current rules make sense when you consider the situation of real world rapid target shooting.

The thing is once your counting all pellets fired as one lot of pellets flying at those targets which was first out the barrel stops being relevant, and that mod from the recoil just turns into how many hit the target (or in the case of spreading your fire distance between targets becomes factor as well).

From what little I know of skeet/clay shooting at multiple targets you want to get your shots out quickly not only because they'll only stay in the air for so long, but the longer the delay the further away from each other they'll possibly get because each one flies slightly differently. Also depending on the set up they may be getting further away from you as well.

This is modelled pretty well in the GURPS system. Take that 6 clays in one release record. You choices are going to be as follows (in GURPS).

Take you 3xROF spread you attacks over the 6 targets in 1 sec

Use the rules for quicker firing to increase ROF (which will give negs to hit but more 'ROF' which will give you plusses, but there's a trade off in that as well see below) in one second

Use rapid fire to target each one separately (but you get negs for doing this, and if you combine it with quicker firing negs from extra recoil for that as well IIRC)

Take you 3xROF spread you attacks over one set of targets in 1st sec and then take you 3xROF spread you attacks over one set of targets in the 2nd sec.

Obviously which it optimal depends on skill, and spread, but the rule of thumb that hitting more targets is going to be more difficult than hitting less targets no matter what.

From what I understand those 6 clays in one pass (or 5, 4, 3) were dependent on a lucky spread as well.

Also don't forget often some of those clays get obliterated (several pellets hitting) and some are only winged (less pellets hitting). Again something that tends to happen in GURPS spreading a large number of ROF between multiple targets

Originally Posted by kdtipa

Sure, but if the number of pellets is 9, the first pellet in the second shot is already starting out with a penalty of -9. The first pellet in the third shot starts with a penalty of -18. Even with a recoil of 1, the odds of hitting anything with the second and third shot are kind of horrible. I'm going to point back to skeet shooters and suggest it doesn't work like the GURPS rules seem to.

Only its one attack, you rolling to hit with each pellet, your rolling to hit with N pellets. basically there is difference between:

"Its -9 difficult to hit with all 9 pellets"

and

"It's -9 difficult to hit with your ninth pellet"

Rcl here means two different things, if you were rolling to hit with each pellet, then Rcl 1 would mean its -1 more difficult to hit with each consecutive pellet (and as you say shotguns don't work like that). What Rcl in shotguns really represents in GURPS is the tendency for pellets to spread out. Theoretically the way it works actually makes repeated shot's easier, because it treats all 3 shots (assuming 3xn ROF) as a single shot and ignores physical recoil of each round going off.

However I'd say it does factor that in because the because to hit for increasing ROF tails off, 3xN is not 3x bonus of N. (this becomes more true the larger N gets so its more relevant for Bird shot than say Buck)

I think this is regular occurrence in GURPS, if you take one rule in isolation you find a an issue, but when you set in the wider context of related rules you'll often find the issue is removed.

i.e yes if if fire 3 loads of 9 shot at something then yes the recoil form the first shell will make the 2nd lot of 9 less accurate and the recoil from the 2nd will make the 3rd lot of 9 less accurate, but that's fine because not only does the last 9 get less of bonus to hit than the first two (ROF 9 = +2, ROF 18 = +4, ROF 27 = +5 IIRC), but the number of pellets hitting is going to be limited by my skill (baring obscenely high skills) so you will also get a point of diminishing returns from that as well. Basically the 'reality of the system is that the more you shot the more likely your are to hit the target with more pellets, but very soon your chances of hitting with each consecutive pellet tails off.

Example: Say I'm skill effective skill 12 (before ROF bonuses) and I roll a 10

1x9 = 12+2, 4 hits 44% of a fired pellet hitting
2x9 = 12+4, 6 hits 33% of a fired pellet hitting
3x9 = 12+5, 7 hits 25% of a fired pellet hitting

And all this done with one roll per target. Shotgun rules in GURPS get some stick in the wider Roleplaying community, but I think they are pretty elegant.

[kdtipa]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Example: Say I'm skill effective skill 12 (before ROF bonuses) and I roll a 10

1x9 = 12+2, 4 hits 44% of a fired pellet hitting
2x9 = 12+4, 6 hits 33% of a fired pellet hitting
3x9 = 12+5, 7 hits 25% of a fired pellet hitting

And all this done with one roll per target. Shotgun rules in GURPS get some stick in the wider Roleplaying community, but I think they are pretty elegant.

So in the third situation listed there... 7 pellets hits out of all three shots fired... it looks to me like 7 of the 9 in the first shot actually hit, and none of the following shots had any pellets that hit anything. If I'm firing at three separate targets, that means I only hit one of three targets. Or am I misunderstanding something still?

I'd like to see a write up of how the rolling happens. Sticking with the pump shotgun from the basic set, and imagining a person with zombies or something closing on them quickly. The person in the scenario fires one shot at each of three zombies in the first round. How do you roll that and figure out how much of each shot hit each zombie?

[Mathulhu]

I think there is a disconnect about what shots means.

Person with skill A and a rof 3x9 shot gun against three zombies X Y Z all in one second.

Three separate shots.

The Cinematic Rapid Shot rules would let you make three separate attacks at -12. This can be halved with Gunslinger and reduced with the Quick shot Technique, HighTech 249-252.

Rate of Fire 1x9 would give +2 to hit.

So the rolls would look like this.
Shot one
3d6 vs Skill A -12 +2

Shot two
3d6 vs Skill A -12 +2

Shot three
3d6 vs Skill A -12 +2

Rcl 1 means one pellet hits per margin of success.

One attack

If instead you targeted one zombie with all three shots as a single rapid fire attack it would work out like this.

Rate of fire 3x9= 27 which is +5

Attack one
3d6 vs Skill A +5

Rcl 1 means one pellet hits per margin of success.

There are additional rules to cover where the other pellets end up. If the zombies are close enough together then the others could be hit even though they weren't targeted.

Shot guns have shots 3x9 so they cannot use the spreading fire rules, requires 5+ and the number after the x does not count.

Edit

Or you could make two attacks. The rapid shot penalty would drop to -6 and one attack could be Rof 2x9 (18 goes to +4) and the other 1x9 (9 goes to +2).

Attack one Rof 2x9
3d6 vs Skill A -6 +4

Attack one Rof 1X9
3d6 vs Skill A -6 +2

[kdtipa]

Okay, that makes more sense... but where are the rules that give the +2, +4, +5, etc? And where are the rules about the -6 and -12?

edit: and this is still really more complicated than I'd hope.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by kdtipa

Okay, that makes more sense... but where are the rules that give the +2, +4, +5, etc? And where are the rules about the -6 and -12?

The +2, +3 or +4 is from the Shots vs. Bonus to Hit table on page B.373.

The -6 is a "Ranged Rapid Strike", which you'll find on p18 of Tactical Shooting, along with the technique to buy it down. That technique is necessary to get realistic chances to hit with an RRS once you consider range penalties, and the 3d6 bell-curve. -12 is the extrapolation of RRS into three, rather than two attacks, at which point hitting gets very hard.

One thing that is an important difference between GURPS's three-dice bell curve and the linear probabilities of systems that use a d20 or d100, is that small chances to hit are smaller than they may appear. Say you need a 6 or less. If you were rolling a d20, that's a 30% chance - not great odds, but worth a try. For 3d6, a 6 or less is only a 9.3% chance of success, and finding something else to do with better odds is a good idea.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by kdtipa

So in the third situation listed there... 7 pellets hits out of all three shots fired... it looks to me like 7 of the 9 in the first shot actually hit, and none of the following shots had any pellets that hit anything. If I'm firing at three separate targets, that means I only hit one of three targets. Or am I misunderstanding something still?

No because it doesn't differentiate between the three blasts of 9, i.e those seven could have come from any of them, and it assumes your only shooting at one target.

If your shooting at three targets you could do it one of two ways.

The following brings up a point though, RAW has it that only ROF5+ can spray between targets. In HT it says that rapid firing (i.e increasing the number of semi automatic shots you fire per second by taking to hit penalties doesn't count for this) now the question is does 3x9 count as 27 in terms of allowing spraying fire or not. It may well not see Sir Puddings post above!

Assuming you can do Spraying fire at several targets with a ROF27, with shot you sum the total number of projectiles and you then make three separate attacks at each target with the following mods

1st target +5 (ROF 27)
2nd Target a plus for the ROF (which would be 27- the number of pellets hitting the first target, -2x number of meters away from the 1st target) and recoil would be 2 for determining how many hit.
3rd target same again only rcl woudl now be 3 for determing how many hit

take my earlier example only now its three targets are 2 yards way from each other

1st roll 1st target (effective skill 12) +5 (ROF 27) roll of 10 with rcl 1 = 7 hit

2nd roll 2nd target (effective skill 12) +3 (ROF is 27 - 7 for the ones that hit, -2x2 for crossing 2 yards = 16) roll of 10 with rcl 2 = 3 hit

3rd roll 3rd target (effective skill 12) +2 (ROF is 16 - 2 for the ones that hit, -2x1 for crossing 2 yards = 12) roll of 10 with rcl 3 = 2 hit.

Bearing mind all three targets have to be within a 30 degree firing arc etc, etc.

If you can't use semi automatic shots in spray fire then it's rapid attacks with the negatives which IIRC is -6 per target after the first

so thats three shots are -12 (but +2 for ROF 9) so -10 each

There's quite a difference between the two there! the first makes it easy to hit multiple targets with shot (if they are close) but reduces the effect on target, the second makes it very difficult to hit, but your less restricted in when you can use it.

or you could suppress fire of course (I'm not at home so don't have the rules for that).

Originally Posted by kdtipa

I'd like to see a write up of how the rolling happens. Sticking with the pump shotgun from the basic set, and imagining a person with zombies or something closing on them quickly. The person in the scenario fires one shot at each of three zombies in the first round. How do you roll that and figure out how much of each shot hit each zombie?

Its going to depend on what you allow in from the above (and the more I read up the more it seems that you can't do spray fire on NxM shotguns unless N is 5+ and fully automatic, this makes some of my first post redundant sorry).