[DF] Abrahamic religions

[jason taylor]

In any case the OPs question as I understand was, "Why can't God give us proof and save us trouble of arguing about it."

In the real world the answer is, so far as can be given without a five hundred page tome:

1. It is hard to say what would constitute proof

2. It might well be that whatever proof there is, we are not ready for it.

3. Man is flawed, quarrelsome and imperfect in knowledge and that makes him ready to quarrel. If he didn't quarrel about which religious interpretation was correct he would quarrel about something else. If man was unfallen he would know intuitively and there would be no need for proof.

In a fantasy world the answer is-whatever.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

The role they play in your scheme is incompatible with a chance at eternal life,

Lots of people and organizations have agents without chances of eternal life entering into the picture.

Originally Posted by jason taylor

In any case the OPs question as I understand was, "Why can't God give us proof and save us trouble of arguing about it."

The actual question is "Why would a god not pull the plug on the clerical magic of clerics who were making war on other faithful followers said god." And under the rules, I can only see that happening if said god actually approves of conflict and battles for supremacy. Doing stuff your god doesn't approve of is one of the inherent weaknesses of clerical magic along with being sanctity-dependant. (There's an escape clause though in Christianity's pacifist tendencies. If the cleric refrains from attacking the heretics and infidels but just heals the soldiers that could be enough of an arms reach to keep his ticket from being pulled.)

The fact that you wanted to turn a game-related question into a question of real-life theology though, is an object lesson in why I don't find it a good idea to include actual religions in my fantasy gaming, particularly not when there might be an adherent in the room.

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

But to repeat my point, as we already live in a universe full of wonders(like ourselves), and not all of us accept that as sufficient that there is at least something, whatever it is, it is not clear what would be a sufficient wonder to put in a fantasy verse. If there were gods actually walking around, someone would say their priests hired actors.

However like you said, this is a fantasy verse. That saves a lot of headaches.

The wonders, while wonderful, often have logical explanations, accepted by most of the people who understand them. God could be the logical explanation for a cleric's ability to cast spells--but it doesn't seem like the logical explanation for much else.
The fact that no one has ever supplied the evidence doesn't imply that nothing submitted as evidence would ever be accepted.

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

The actual question is "Why would a god not pull the plug on the clerical magic of clerics who were making war on other faithful followers said god." And under the rules, I can only see that happening if said god actually approves of conflict and battles for supremacy. Doing stuff your god doesn't approve of is one of the inherent weaknesses of clerical magic along with being sanctity-dependant. (There's an escape clause though in Christianity's pacifist tendencies. If the cleric refrains from attacking the heretics and infidels but just heals the soldiers that could be enough of an arms reach to keep his ticket from being pulled.)
.

Yeah, that is the concept I was trying to deal with. I am just using the cinematic concept of Christianity (and other faiths) for coolness purposes only. Like when a vampire hunter pulls out a cross to repel a vampire instead an Orb of Goodness from the religion of Glorp the Good to repel said vampire.

[Flyndaran]

If your game involves a real world religion with verifiable powers, then by definition it isn't a real world religion any more.
Real powers would DRASTICALLY change them into nearly unrecognizable forms.

[Captain Joy]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

The actual question is "Why would a god not pull the plug on the clerical magic of clerics who were making war on other faithful followers said god." And under the rules, I can only see that happening if said god actually approves of conflict and battles for supremacy. Doing stuff your god doesn't approve of is one of the inherent weaknesses of clerical magic along with being sanctity-dependant. (There's an escape clause though in Christianity's pacifist tendencies. If the cleric refrains from attacking the heretics and infidels but just heals the soldiers that could be enough of an arms reach to keep his ticket from being pulled.)

Agreed. You'll need to be careful about why the god gives powers to its followers and what behavior will result in their removal. David Johnston2's idea is a good one. Alternately, just don't make aggressive action against fellow tangential-believers grounds to lose your powers. E.g. as long as you fast once a week, maintain your pruity, and etc., etc., etc. you'll keep your powers. You can use your powers to make an unprovoked attack against a rival-but-same-god-worshiping sect without consequence, as this doesn't violate the conditions to keep your powers.

As to why the god would allow such behavior, your players don't need to know this. You might want to come up with an explanation so as to maintain a nice consistent setting cosmology.

[Alden Loveshade]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

You can also go the Gnostic route and say that the god of the Old Testament is a lower being seeking to keep us imprisoned here. That could justify some fairly nasty anti-Semitic pogroms though, so handle with care.

Good point. You might also want to consider that there was a great deal of time and change between the Protestant Old Testament and New Testament. Even the Jews were not strictly following the harsher Old Testament laws in the days of Jesus of Nazareth.

For example, compare Old Testament Deuteronomy 22 to New Testament Matthew 1 (I'm using the English Standard Version):

Deuteronomy 22:23 - 24a “If there is a betrothed virgin, and a man meets her in the city and lies with her, then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones...."

Matthew 1:19: "And her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly."

It is generally agreed that Matthew was a Jew writing to Jews. In the time of Deuteronomy, Joseph, being a just Jewish man who was betrothed to a virgin named Mary, would have had Mary stoned to death (along with the one who impregnated her, who in this case would be God....)

[Dammann]

b-dog, are your players down with this Abrahamic God in the DF game idea of yours? I am just curious. I could see it being a tough sell, whatever the individual players' beliefs. It is challenging to be both respectful of people's sincere convictions about the nature of everything and play a fun game about it at the same time.

I do like the idea of clerical magic coming from lesser beings like saints and djinn and angels and whatever. What about Zoroasterian clerics? They could get their magic from Yazatas, I guess? Buddhist clerics from Bodhisattvas? Shintoist clerics from... their ancestors maybe? Does this idea conflict with Biblical miracles, or is it just that since the New Testament, God does things differently?

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by Dammann

b-dog, are your players down with this Abrahamic God in the DF game idea of yours? I am just curious. I could see it being a tough sell, whatever the individual players' beliefs. It is challenging to be both respectful of people's sincere convictions about the nature of everything and play a fun game about it at the same time.

I do like the idea of clerical magic coming from lesser beings like saints and djinn and angels and whatever. What about Zoroasterian clerics? They could get their magic from Yazatas, I guess? Buddhist clerics from Bodhisattvas? Shintoist clerics from... their ancestors maybe? Does this idea conflict with Biblical miracles, or is it just that since the New Testament, God does things differently?

As far as players go, they have played Ars Magica and Vampire The Masquerade both of which use the Christian church so there does not seem to be a problem. I am just using what I think is cool in my DF game and the Catholic church is cool to me as is Islam and Judaism.

In my DF world which is pretty much a Mythic Earth, I have all of the gods of myth and legend as well as the Gods of religion. DF is rule of cool and Buddhist monks are cool so they are in. I don't have any Zoroasterians but they can easily be in my game if wanted. The magic and miracles are granted based on the particular cleric living up to his faith requirements. So all clerics can perform supernatural feats without any conflict. The nature of the gods is beyond human understanding so there is no need to go into the logic of why this or that is allowed to happen and so on. A Christian cleric just needs to follow the faith requirements in order to have access to magic and there is no need to go into why God would allow Catholics to fight Protestants or perform Crusades.

[Langy]

Originally Posted by b-dog

In my DF world which is pretty much a Mythic Earth, I have all of the gods of myth and legend as well as the Gods of religion. DF is rule of cool and Buddhist monks are cool so they are in. I don't have any Zoroasterians but they can easily be in my game if wanted. The magic and miracles are granted based on the particular cleric living up to his faith requirements. So all clerics can perform supernatural feats without any conflict. The nature of the gods is beyond human understanding so there is no need to go into the logic of why this or that is allowed to happen and so on. A Christian cleric just needs to follow the faith requirements in order to have access to magic and there is no need to go into why God would allow Catholics to fight Protestants or perform Crusades.

I'm doing somewhat the same, except my Mythic Earth is primarily set prior to Christianity becoming popular (it's roughly set in Roman times). There is a Christianity analogue, but it's set during the time when the Jesus-analogue was alive (and was basically a war-leader of an Arthurian Britain analogue, so a bit different - wound up being a mashup of Christianity and another religion I don't remember off the top of my head).