Replicating TK from differing fictional sources?

[B9anders]

Originally Posted by Aeris Sin Rievn

After reading the defending against telekinesis thread, specifically posts 61 and 69 along with the post quoted above, I think that TK w/AE only solves the portion with lifting the water (or dust, etc) but doesn't give me anyway to achieve the detailed shaping mentioned in my original post.

Why not? If you can lift it, you can manipulate it. The whole point of TK is fine control. TK/w Area Effect is fine control of an area. You have a TK force that can basically fill out an entire area.

I think you guys are overplaying how demanding this is supposed to be. Shaping water into a specific form is an utterly trivial feat, from a gaming perspective. There is no reason why it should not be possible with TK+Area Effect. This is just one of those 'cool trivial things' you can do with TK w/Area Effect. The real reason to take it is to grapple and punch multiple people whilst giving them no chance of escape and such. That's what you pay for.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by B9anders

Why not? If you can lift it, you can manipulate it. The whole point of TK is fine control. TK/w Area Effect is fine control of an area. You have a TK force that can basically fill out an entire area.

I think you guys are overplaying how demanding this is supposed to be. Shaping water into a specific form is an utterly trivial feat, from a gaming perspective. There is no reason why it should not be possible with TK+Area Effect. This is just one of those 'cool trivial things' you can do with TK w/Area Effect. The real reason to take it is to grapple and punch multiple people whilst giving them no chance of escape and such. That's what you pay for.

The best reason that comes to mind is one already alluded to, that being a distinction between Control and Telekinesis. The sculpting is just a trivial, but cool, effect. Therefore taking it away from TK is not really reducing that ability's utility, while keeping it for Control gives lower levels of Control a unique perk (small "p").

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

The best reason that comes to mind is one already alluded to, that being a distinction between Control and Telekinesis. The sculpting is just a trivial, but cool, effect. Therefore taking it away from TK is not really reducing that ability's utility, while keeping it for Control gives lower levels of Control a unique perk (small "p").

For a trivial, cool, mostly useless application of a power, I would not make the character pick up a second advantage. This is exactly the sort of thing that should be doable for a TKer by way of a Power Stunt or a single Perk. A Perk fits nicely for a unique trick that marks a character as special without giving them any new abilities.

[PK]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

This is exactly the sort of thing that should be doable for a TKer by way of a Power Stunt or a single Perk.

*cough*Hydrokinesis*cough*

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

*cough*Hydrokinesis*cough*

Eh, he seemed to think that the fine control was an additional level of difficulty, on top of that to just hold the water. I tend to agree with you though, anyways who can hold it should be able to shape it with a TK skill roll.

[B9anders]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

The best reason that comes to mind is one already alluded to, that being a distinction between Control and Telekinesis. The sculpting is just a trivial, but cool, effect. Therefore taking it away from TK is not really reducing that ability's utility, while keeping it for Control gives lower levels of Control a unique perk (small "p").

Why is distinguishing between Control and Telekinesis desirable? I'd think it undesirable since the net effect is that you'd be asking a teke to take an advantage that generally doesn't appear in the Psychokinesis power set, just in order to be able to accomplish a basic feat very commonly associated with Psychokinesis.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by B9anders

Why is distinguishing between Control and Telekinesis desirable? I'd think it undesirable since the net effect is that you'd be asking a teke to take an advantage that generally doesn't appear in the Psychokinesis power set, just in order to be able to accomplish a basic feat very commonly associated with Psychokinesis.

I question "very commonly associated". Shaping columns of water into obscene sculptures comes up surprisingly rarely ;) More generally, shaping some sort of matter that isn't ameniable to shaping is normally a stunt associated with specialists in that kind of matter (aka a Hydrokinetic in this example).

I don't see TK very commonly associated with more than a sort of abstract forcefieldish effect, which may be handwaved as "reinforcing air atoms" but is more often just flat out "look, the TK stops stuff, OK?" sort of thing, possibly with an explanation involving psychokinetic energy.

Which makes a Power Stunt a great solution for PKs that do it on occasion to show off, but not often enough to buy into that sort of specialist power for regular use.

[PK]

Originally Posted by vierasmarius

Eh, he seemed to think that the fine control was an additional level of difficulty, on top of that to just hold the water. I tend to agree with you though, anyways who can hold it should be able to shape it with a TK skill roll.

If you can hold the water, you can shape the water, just like if you can pick up a blob of clay with your TK, you can reshape the blob of clay. That was certainly my intent when writing the perk. Control Water allows you to do many things that TK + Hydrokinesis doesn't, but they certainly overlap when it comes to moving and shaping a mass of water.

Now, mind you, turning it into a "long-stemmed rose" or something on that level of detail should require at least an Artist (Sculpting) roll. Personally, I'd say that Artist (Water-Sculpting) is its own skill, defaulting back-and-forth with (Sculpting) at -2. And you can't get color -- it's still just water.

[B9anders]

Originally Posted by Bruno

I question "very commonly associated". Shaping columns of water into obscene sculptures comes up surprisingly rarely ;)

True, I was more thinking along lines of shaping diffuse masses into directed TK tubes, and so forth. Basically, shaping what you can hold.

And water is very amenable to shaping. Just pour it into a bag. It requires hardly any force at all to shape. All you need is enough manipulators in place to hold the shape. Both are emulated by area effect. Hydrokinesis accomplishes at least the former, maybe the latter too (depending on how you read "as if it were a solid object").

I am going mostly on comics, but I'd consider it if not very common then common enough that it's not really a power stunt for most accomplished tekes. It's just stuff they can do.

But then, I'd also say most tekes in fiction have area effect on their Telekinesis anyway.

[Aeris Sin Rievn]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

If you can hold the water, you can shape the water, just like if you can pick up a blob of clay with your TK, you can reshape the blob of clay. That was certainly my intent when writing the perk. Control Water allows you to do many things that TK + Hydrokinesis doesn't, but they certainly overlap when it comes to moving and shaping a mass of water.

Now, mind you, turning it into a "long-stemmed rose" or something on that level of detail should require at least an Artist (Sculpting) roll. Personally, I'd say that Artist (Water-Sculpting) is its own skill, defaulting back-and-forth with (Sculpting) at -2. And you can't get color -- it's still just water.

If this is the case - would TK (AE) + Aerokinesis allow you to the same with gasses & smoke? For example - force a gas to the floor or ceiling.

I'm guessing that to pick a lock with no tools but TK would require some sort of sensing capability to tell where the tumblers are - Clairsentience or another perk perhaps? Not really sight, but more a sense of mental awareness of position.

~Rievn