Replicating TK from differing fictional sources?

[B9anders]

Originally Posted by wellspring

Any concerns/comments? I already noticed that at Supers-level TK, CM becomes cheaper than second nature.

Just this really. With the modifers for CM in Psionic Powers, I think it makes more sense as a 'second nature psionics' muscle than the "I have two minds in my brain" concept the vanilla advantage emulates, but either approach seems to emulate the concept well enough.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by B9anders

Control wouldn't be able to make the water 'detach itself from the body of water'.

Oops, quite right... I overlooked that bit from the op. That may be a reason to suppose Control to be 'finer' than TK with AE.

[Aeris Sin Rievn]

Originally Posted by B9anders

Adding Area Effect to your TK changes it from 'two set of hands' to 'whatever you want to mould your TK as within the area effect'. It affects the entire area, save those parts you choose to exclude (since TK involves fine control, unlike an IA).

Hrm... this seems to be contradicted by Kromm in this thread.

Apparently for TK, the area effect enhancement creates an 'infinite number of hands'. While this might suffice for creating a statue out of dust, given that the hands are small enough, I don't see how it would accomplish creating one out of water or moving/compressing a gas/gaseous substance.

The hydrokinesis perk seems to just a bucket. Which wouldn't allow you to shape (example: the water sculpture) the material(s) in question.

[vierasmarius]

Originally Posted by Aeris Sin Rievn

The hydrokinesis perk seems to just a bucket. Which wouldn't allow you to shape (example: the water sculpture) the material(s) in question.

The ability to sculpt a liquid seems pretty trivial compared to the rest of the power itself. For a TKer with Hydrokinesis, I'd allow fine control with a roll of TK skill.

[B9anders]

Originally Posted by Aeris Sin Rievn

Hrm... this seems to be contradicted by Kromm in this thread.

Apparently for TK, the area effect enhancement creates an 'infinite number of hands'. While this might suffice for creating a statue out of dust, given that the hands are small enough, I don't see how it would accomplish creating one out of water or moving/compressing a gas/gaseous substance.

The hydrokinesis perk seems to just a bucket. Which wouldn't allow you to shape (example: the water sculpture) the material(s) in question.

You are taking his description there too literally. Elsewhere he has clarified that it is basically as described in this thread.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by B9anders

You are taking his description there too literally. Elsewhere he has clarified that it is basically as described in this thread.

I had searched for the thread that ASR linked to, because I remembered it as pertinent to this one. Do you have a link to the clarification you're thinking of? It isn't coming to mind like the other.

[B9anders]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

I had searched for the thread that ASR linked to, because I remembered it as pertinent to this one. Do you have a link to the clarification you're thinking of? It isn't coming to mind like the other.

here:

Originally Posted by Kromm

That's a natural consequence of Area Effect on TK.

And in the thread already linked:

Originally Posted by Kromm

Don't forget that it really isn't much of a power-up without other advantages. It isn't as if Extra Attack is free or even all that cheap, and it's just an attack even then. For the most part, the "lots of invisible hands" effect from AE lets tekes do exactly what players assume they should be able to do, based on fiction: Assemble machines, hover lots of smallish items, and so on.

In other words, taking the 'lots of extra hands' literally is taking it too literally.

[Aeris Sin Rievn]

After reading the defending against telekinesis thread, specifically posts 61 and 69 along with the post quoted above, I think that TK w/AE only solves the portion with lifting the water (or dust, etc) but doesn't give me anyway to achieve the detailed shaping mentioned in my original post.

Originally Posted by Kromm

Telekinesis on its own can do anything that an invisible man of the same ST, standing in close combat with you, could do with just his hands. It can punch, grab items, grapple, and execute followups to grapples, like takedowns and throws. All of this interacts with DR normally. If you punch, it's always outside the DR, even if the DR is transparent, and the DR always applies. If you squeeze or pull, it's no different from a close-combat choke or Neck Snap or Wrench Limb attempt at the same ST, and if the DR is rigid, it applies . . . again, even if you can see beyond it. TK effects cannot manifest internally. To get that, either open up the target (remove a panel, use Surgery to cut him open, etc.) so you could reach in if you were standing there in close combat in person, or use your TK as an excuse to buy an alternative attack.

Originally Posted by Kromm

If you can see a place where an invisible man could stand at close-combat distances, you can work there. That's the innate drawback. In effect, TK projects an invisible force replica of someone of your size and shape to a remote location, where it does things with its hands. You can get other kinds of psychokinetic tricks, but those aren't TK. Those are Affliction, Binding, Damage Resistance, Flight, Innate Attack, Temperature Control, etc. That's why these things are part of the Psychokinesis power. If TK could do all that by itself, then what would be the point of the rest of the power?

You appear to be making the equation Telekinesis = Psychokinesis. This isn't any more true than Mind Reading = Telepathy.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Aeris Sin Rievn

After reading the defending against telekinesis thread, specifically posts 61 and 69 along with the post quoted above, I think that TK w/AE only solves the portion with lifting the water (or dust, etc) but doesn't give me anyway to achieve the detailed shaping mentioned in my original post.

I can see the argument for unlimited hands (per Area Effect) allowing you to quickly sculpt or hold in place a diffuse object. However to me it doesn't really feel good enough to be that detailed which is why I suggested Control. Sculpting something that holds together better like clay, sure but harder objects like stone you would need to pick up a chisel. I can see Control working better and more elegantly in each of these cases for the fine detail described in the opening.
I would let you Power Stunt it and buy a technique to reduce the skill penalty in most games.

[wellspring]

I think you're confusing "The best analogy to use from a game mechanics perspective" with "how the power works in-setting". The Kromm examples are specifically combat examples.

If you insist, I suppose you could charge a second "level" to the hydrokinesis perk to enable standing water sculptures.

My question is this: what are you planning on using this for? Does it materially alter the game balance between two identical characters, one with the power and one without it? Those are the questions we ask when determining whether a given advantage is over- or under-powered. And the issues are precisely the same here.

The only game benefit I can see is if a clever player used this as the justification to create Illusions. Powers, page 94, has the rundown on how you might do this: Psychokinesis -10%, Tactile +20%, Inaudible -30%, Accessibility (requires a body of water) -20%, then play with range and other modifiers to match your other powers. Right now we're at -40%, for a net cost of 15, and that's before we factor in a limitation to reflect the fact that illusions made entirely of water should give the viewer a major bonus to his disbelieve roll.

And after all that? I still think you're better off offering it as a Perk.

UPDATE: Actually, I like Refplace's idea even better. Just restrict access to the stunt to people with the right kind of TK.