Lifting water with TK

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Baseline humans may establish the 0 point level for GURPS, but not all traits are judged around "what would a baseline human be like?"

News to me.

... extra SM is not a 0-point trait for TK hands. SM is a 0-point modifier because its drawbacks (difficulty fitting into smaller area, difficulty hiding, easier to hit, etc.) are balanced by its benefits (Better grapples, more reach, etc.). But pretty much all the disadvantages of high Size are negated for the "hands" Telekinesis creates, since they're unhittable, can penetrate solid matter, and are completely invisible. So higher SM should cost more for them, and the best way to do that is an enhancement on TK.

Hmm. Could be. Although I believe SM is a trait, not a power mod, so your analogy may be inexact. Question ... why do you appear to think those benefits are not priced into the power already?

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

News to me.

Again, could you demonstrate where SM must increase with ST or HP? TK hands are not human. So they aren't even limited by whatever the GM decides to limit "realistic humans" to.

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Although I believe SM is a trait, not a power mod, so your analogy may be inexact.

It could be argued, I suppose, that "TK SM" is better modeled as a new advantage, rather than a modifier for TK. Actually, come to think of it, that probably is a better model than an enhancement - I don't think having SM +1 hands is significantly more advantageous for someone with TK 100 compared to TK 10.

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Question ... why do you appear to think those benefits are not priced into the power already?

Because SM is independent of ST everywhere else in the rules?

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Because SM is independent of ST everywhere else in the rules?

News to me.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

News to me.

Well, I think this argument is rapidly declining into pointlessness as well. Sorry to have wasted everyone's time.

[SuedodeuS]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

News to me.

A friendly bit of advice: "News to me" sounds somewhat hostile and generally implies that you do not, in fact, believe what the other person has stated. If what he's saying is truly news to you, I'd recommend responding in a manner that makes this more clear (such as "So it is. My mistake."). If you are indeed using it in the typical quasi-confrontational manner, you'll probably get a lot further by actually stating you don't believe what Kelly Pederson has said and backing this belief up with some sort of evidence. Otherwise you come across as a whiny teenager with nothing to contribute (and your previous comments imply that you do indeed have something to contribute).

[Figleaf23]

Originally Posted by SuedodeuS

A friendly bit of advice: "News to me" sounds somewhat hostile and generally implies that you do not, in fact, believe what the other person has stated. If what he's saying is truly news to you, I'd recommend responding in a manner that makes this more clear (such as "So it is. My mistake."). If you are indeed using it in the typical quasi-confrontational manner, you'll probably get a lot further by actually stating you don't believe what Kelly Pederson has said and backing this belief up with some sort of evidence. Otherwise you come across as a whiny teenager with nothing to contribute (and your previous comments imply that you do indeed have something to contribute).

Thank you for your comment.

By 'news to me', I mean:

"The fault is mine, undoubtedbly, but that assertion about the rules strikes me as unsupported, counter-intuitive, and contrary to everything I heretofore believed about them to such an extent that I wouldn't know where to begin finding the line of text that underpins my entire understanding of this game system. Still, I would appreciate whatever aid you are willing to render, to me, a mere whiny teenager with nothing to contribute who waits here, at your feet, for tendentious and condescending correction."

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

News to me.

B18 "You are free to select any height and weight the GM deems reasonable for a member of your race."

B18 "Regardless of weight, you never have to take a build-related disadvantage. If you want to be ST 9, 5'1," and 250 lbs. with "Average" build, the GM should allow it"

[SuedodeuS]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Thank you for your comment.

By 'news to me', I mean:

"The fault is mine, undoubtedbly, but that assertion about the rules strikes me as unsupported, counter-intuitive, and contrary to everything I heretofore believed about them to such an extent that I wouldn't know where to begin finding the line of text that underpins my entire understanding of this game system. Still, I would appreciate whatever aid you are willing to render, to me, a mere whiny teenager with nothing to contribute who waits here, at your feet, for tendentious and condescending correction."

Ah, then I suspect you did mean it in the manner I initially thought. Keep in mind this generally doesn't add anything to a discussion but instead detracts from what you are trying to say. This post was a fun enough read to make up for that, however.

I think roguebfl has given the references necessary to show you that Kelly Pederson's assertions were indeed well-founded.

[Figleaf23]

Seriously, are you all trying to tell me that ST/HP has no conceptual relationship, in general, to size? Or that size has no conceptual relationship to SM? What is the premise behind the Build table, albeit non-compulsory? Are we really unable to notice a trend among animals, or to take note of the implications of p. B558?

There is a general connection between size and HP in GURPS. There is a human connection between ST and HP in GURPS. Normal ST and TK ST are scaled the same. Accordingly, I see an unbroken connection there from size to TK ST. I don't know of anything in the rules saying the hands are any particular size, so as of this point, I don't see why they would (edit: NOT) vary with TK ST.

[roguebfl]

things like the build table is to help build realistic characters, but the Fact that it not connect is for characters like Data and Superman.

Also GURPS does not have a connection between Size and HP, but with (effective) Mass and HP, density lets size be mostly independent.

Area effect is the way to scale the Size of TK ST