05-08-2017, 02:10 PM | #31 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: High Amounts of non penetrating damage. Bullets VS Plate Carriers
The thing is, the deformation from 7.62 is about adequate to do 1 point of damage, so 'less deformation' means 'no damage'.
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05-08-2017, 03:02 PM | #32 | |
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Re: High Amounts of non penetrating damage. Bullets VS Plate Carriers
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Basically both get stopped by the armor, but in the 5.56x45 from short range from rifle length barrel the armor has to spread about 1750J but with a 7.62x51 from close range you have to spread about 2200J. |
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05-08-2017, 03:12 PM | #33 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: High Amounts of non penetrating damage. Bullets VS Plate Carriers
More like 3200J, but what do you mean by 'spread'? Very little of the kinetic energy gets transferred into movement of the plate -- most of it gets expended on heat, sound, possible ricochet and fragments, and deformation or cracking of projectile and plate, and the job of the armor is to make sure most of that occurs on the outside, not the inside.
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05-08-2017, 03:34 PM | #34 | |
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Re: High Amounts of non penetrating damage. Bullets VS Plate Carriers
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So as example of the thing I am talking about: You have a armor optimized to stop 5.56N AP round, but just barely to keep it light accepting that some deformation is OK as long at it is not at life threatening levels. So the armor stops the bullet and deforms X amount. Then the armor is hit by a 7.62N Ball round. In case the face of the armor is not able to bounce the round by deflection type mechanisms there should likely be some deformation. In the proposed model such a vest(DR 35 in GURPS terms) would thus cause 1 HP crush though with 5.56 but the 7.62 would not even come close to doing it. I find this unrealistic for plates where part of the protection mechanism is the deformation. |
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05-09-2017, 02:53 AM | #35 | |||
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: High Amounts of non penetrating damage. Bullets VS Plate Carriers
I find it works well (but IMO needs the bleeding rules as well)
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Ah OK right, sorry I thought you we're referring to the proposed house rule, yeah, tanks guns etc lots of momentum! (at the personal level) EDIT: sorry just looking again at the second second section of this, I'm no sure what you mean when linking MinST to Knock back? And I'm not sure a 10g bullet travelling 830m/s will knock back a human sized target (in lots of armour) a yard if it collides but doesn't penetrate. But then knock back in GURPS is a lot of different things. Quote:
What's 1pt of damage or 2 points etc is subject to an awful lot of variable beyond just how far back did the plate push/bulge However that said as per my post 18 I don't actually think the best way to look at this is have 1 or 2 (or whatever) damage applied uniformly, as blunt trauma usually is. But rather to call it Cr and allow it the varied effects on location as per MA injury rules. Last edited by Tomsdad; 05-09-2017 at 05:20 AM. |
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05-09-2017, 03:14 AM | #36 | |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: High Amounts of non penetrating damage. Bullets VS Plate Carriers
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Remember Armour Divisors apply to the DR not the damage roll. Divide the target’s DR by the number in parentheses before subtracting it from basic damage; Campaigns pgg378 So when it comes to comparing damage for blunt trauma it's not: 5.56 AP average penetration 35 vs. 7.62 average penetration 24 but: 5.56 AP average damage 17 vs. 7.62 average damage 24 So it still fine for the 7.62mm to deform the plate more, even if due to it's AP effect the 5.56 is better at penetrating it Last edited by Tomsdad; 05-09-2017 at 03:40 AM. |
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05-09-2017, 03:43 AM | #37 |
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Re: High Amounts of non penetrating damage. Bullets VS Plate Carriers
That is exactly my point.
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05-09-2017, 03:51 AM | #38 |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: High Amounts of non penetrating damage. Bullets VS Plate Carriers
And that's what you get, so long as you compare the damage rolls and use the the damage rolls to assess deformation and blunt trauma etc, and not the penetration which is drastically improved for the 5.56 because it has the AD(2)
i.e 17 vs 24, not 35 vs 24 EDIT: Sorry I should add weather or not that will correspond to more blunt Trauma is going to depend on the threshold system you use. Anthony's system was half of the DR counts as flexible and the other half rigid so with DR35* neither 5.56AP or 7.62 would give you blunt trauma under it (but only because the threshold is 10, the 7.62 is closer to doing so than the 5.56). If you just count it all as flexible then you'd get 1 point from the 5.56AP, and 2 from the 7.62. But really that's just a matter of tinkering around the edges to allow a 5.56 to not give any and the 7.62 to give some. For instance treat the plate as flexible, and calculate blunt trauma as you normally would, but subtract 1 from the result. *but then a DR35 plate is a pretty serious plate Last edited by Tomsdad; 05-09-2017 at 06:16 AM. |
05-09-2017, 10:33 AM | #39 |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Brighton
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Re: High Amounts of non penetrating damage. Bullets VS Plate Carriers
I certainly agree strong enough non penetrating Thrusting attacks should count if strong enough swings do*
(the difference in swinging and thrusting forces for generating can be shown by the difference between basic Thr and Sw damage) Somethings also need to be adjusted on an individual basis (a v.fine cutting sword that gets +2 damage for being extra sharp etc, shouldn't be better at knocking people back if it fail to get past DR) *Equally I see no reason why swung imp attacks risk getting stuck, but thrust imp ones don't. I'd prefer to make it function of Imp damage in some way, as I also don't see why a 2 point Swung Imp injury is as prone to get stuck as a 12 point one (just as I don't see what 2 point swung Imp wound risks getting stuck, but a 12 point thrust imp wound doesn't) Last edited by Tomsdad; 05-09-2017 at 01:18 PM. |
05-09-2017, 11:23 AM | #40 | ||||
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: High Amounts of non penetrating damage. Bullets VS Plate Carriers
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For the latter, I calculated the impact damage using the Collisions rules from Tbone's GULLIVER rules, which are designed to be more realistic than the default GURPS rules. I only calculated it for three projectiles, however - the 5.56x45mm, 7.62x39mm, and .50 BMG - and extrapolated from there, so the actual crushing damage of other bullets may not be as suggested in my houserule. Unrealistic Knockback results may be more an issue with the Knockback rules than with the crushing component of bullets. Post #4 of my previously linked thread does a lot of this, by essentially giving every attack a crushing component (which would have Knockback associated). Having attacks that are partially blocked only have Knockback from the portion of the damage that is blocked is a logical addition. Quote:
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Tags |
armor, ballistic, non-penetrating, punched by a baby, trauma |
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