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Old 10-26-2021, 12:33 PM   #21
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Realistic Pokémon-style GURPS mechanics

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
By charging 20 points fo an IQ that has no effect on Will or Per you are throwing half of what you normally get with IQ at [20]
I believe those who feel IQ should be divorced from Per and Will but still cost [20]/level do so because IQ covers so much that only charging [10]/level seems to be undercharging. And, even without magic and various esoteric skills, there are more IQ-based skills than DX-based ones. Personally, I feel IQ that is divorced from Per and Will should indeed cost less than [20]. [10] might seem too cheap compared to DX, but then DX is more likely to have rolls made against it unmodified and it makes up [5]/level toward Basic Speed, so [10] for IQ probably isn't too bad... at least when magic isn't in play.

Of course, a lot of those IQ-based skills aren't going to be useful for an animalistic Pokemon. From your list, Academic skills and Technical skills are pretty much no-go (OP has even stated Pokemon can't learn to use things like phones), and only Pokemon from social species are likely to get a lot of use out of Social skills, and a lot of the Brainier "adventure" skills are probably unavailable as well.
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Old 10-28-2021, 05:09 AM   #22
Zarathustraff
 
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Default Re: Realistic Pokémon-style GURPS mechanics

I read you comments and I can see I went a little too much off the road, because of my Mathematics background.
So, I decided to simply what I wrote last time about stats, correct attribute costs and explaining a little better the Power and Will attribute.

Stats

Attributes

Strength
No changes.

Dexterity
No changes.

Intelligence
There are couple changes: independent Will, independent Per, no Magic. The cost becomes 15 points/level.

I repeat it: Pokémons will not benefit much from this attribute, but Trainers will (as in other GURPS setting).
The independece of Will (5 points) and Per (5 points), plus the elimination of Magic in favor of specific Powers results in a reduction cost for IQ of about 10 points.
It also gains 1.25 points from the new Basic Speed formula.
15 points/level should be a balanced cost.

Health
The cost is increased by 1 due to the new HP formula and 15 is a better choice since I feel 10 is little underpriced.

Power
The new attribute that rapresent magic-like capabilities that are not related with IQ (such as "Elemental attacks", that are really common in Pokémon).
Some Advantages, Disadvantages, Skills, Abilities that once worked with IQ will change in favor of Power.
This should be enough to put this new attribute cost at 10 points/level, at least. 20 is really too much, and 15 mught be a choice, but it really depends on how much useful this attribute will be (and I cannot know it now).

Will
Will becomes an independent attribute, at 15 points/level.
The reason of at least 2 points increase is because it becomes really important, since many Powers attacks demands a Will roll to resist, rapresenting the "Special Defense" we find in Pokémon games.
In addition, it gains 2.5 points thanks to the new Per formula. Than, it gains 1.5 points thanks to the new FP formula. Than, other 1.25 points because of the new Basic Speed formula.
The total cost should be 12.25, becoming 15 for esthetical reasons.



Secondary Characteristics


HP
Maybe the previous choice was too radical, but making HP independent from HT doesn't make any sense to me.
So, the choice becomes:
HP = ST + HT/2
so that strong pokémons are not affected much, but weak pokémon with good health gain a couple of useful HP.
This should increase the cost of HT of 1 point (as I interpreted page 17 of Power-Ups 9).

Perception
I really like the Per formula I wrote last time:
Per = (IQ + Will) + 2
justifing the "+2" factor as a natural consequence of the setting. Another possibility could be dropping the "+2" and add an Advantage that raises Per (but it becomes more complicated since almost everyone would have it).
This should decrease IQ by 2.5 points and increase Will by 2.5 points.
Per gains 2.5 points/level because of the new Basic Speed formula, now at 10 points/level.
This increases the price of IQ and Will by 1.25 points.

FP
I want to keep the formula:
FP= (HT+ Will)/2
and HT cost loses 1.5 points and Will gains 1.5 points.

Basic Speed

I changed my mind about this formula after reading Power-Ups 9 again. I decided to use the OODA formula at page 19:
Basic Speed = (DX + Per)/4
and Per now costs 2.5 points more (HT 5 point less, but it is compensated from the new Ground Speed formula).

Ground Speed

First, it's better to change the name to reflect what it really does.
Second, I use the formula suggested at page 20 of Power-Ups 9:
G. Speed = (DX + HT)/4
and attributes cost should not change.

Stats Summary
For basic attributes.
  • ST: 10 points/level.
  • DX: 20 points/level.
  • IQ: 15 points/level.
  • HT: 15 points(level.
  • PW: 10 points/level (it might become 15 if there will be a lot of uses of PW in the game, it depends on all the new mechanics).
  • WL: 15 points/level.

For secondary characteristics.
  • HP: new formula as HP = ST + HT/2. Cost is 2 points/level.
  • Per: new formula as Per = IQ+Will+2. Cost is 10 points/level.
  • FP: new formula as FP = (HT + Will)/2. Cost is 3 points/level.
  • Basic Speed: new formula as Basic Speed = (DX + Per)/4. Cost is 20 points/level.
  • Ground Speed: new name and formula as G.Speed= (DX + HT)/4. Cost is 5 points/level.

Why all those changes?
Some of you already noted that I made a lot of changes, but I think it was necessary to better rapresent Pokémon characteristics.
Maybe I did not calculated perfectly the points corrections, but I think they should be ok.

In the next reply I will explain better the difference between the Power attribute and the Will attribute, specifically in a Pokémon setting.
Obviouslly, the book GURPS: Powers will be heavily used from now on to explain a lot of choices.

Thank you everybody again, and laying a solid foundation is the best option when you decide to build a big house.
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Old 10-28-2021, 08:23 PM   #23
khorboth
 
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Default Re: Realistic Pokémon-style GURPS mechanics

You seem to be doing an awful lot of work on changing the cost of stuff for Pokemon. But Pokemon are NPCs. So... WHY?

Their point value is ultimately irrelevant. Bulbasaur has a 14 in Vine Whip and a 12 in Razor Leaf because you (The GM) say so. Not because of points.

Unless your players are building Pokemon on a budget, then who cares what anything costs? I'd focus on effects.
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Old 10-28-2021, 08:39 PM   #24
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Default Re: Realistic Pokémon-style GURPS mechanics

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Personally, I feel IQ that is divorced from Per and Will should indeed cost less than [20]. [10] might seem too cheap compared to DX, but then DX is more likely to have rolls made against it unmodified and it makes up [5]/level toward Basic Speed, so [10] for IQ probably isn't too bad... at least when magic isn't in play.
Power-Ups 9: Alternate Attributes p 5, 10 breaks down DX:

*Basic Speed: [5] per +0.25
*Combat skills: [9] per +1
*Athletic skills: [3] per +1
*Transport skills: [2] per +1
*Sneaky skills: [1] per +1

I should mention that Power-Ups 9 feels that HT is underpriced and should be [±12 to ±14]:

*Fatigue Points: ±1 FP for [±3]; this is normally equal to the unmodified HT score
*Basic Speed: ±0.25 for [±5]
*HT-based skills: +1 for [1-2]
*HT rolls: +1 to HT rolls [3-4]
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Old 10-29-2021, 12:08 AM   #25
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Default Re: Realistic Pokémon-style GURPS mechanics

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Originally Posted by Zarathustraff View Post
So, I need other guys or girls like me who are married with GURPS and love the world of Pokémon so much to be as crazy as I am to try to build this Pokémon-like game.
As someone who has sat down and tried to do this four times, I want it to be clear how huge of an undertaking this is if you pay attention to the games almost at all... and how much easier it is when you completely set aside all of it. There is very little that translates well into gurps and even things like weight -> ST, which normally makes sense for IRL creatures, doesn't quite line up for pokemon (even ignoring certain pokemon that seem like they are supposed to be much stronger or much weaker than their weight would suggest).

I've found a few things to keep in mind and two approached to how to make pokemon work.
-Pokemon are much stronger than people. Professor Oak is worried about a ten year old going out into grass with level 2 pokemon. I don't think you ever run into a human opponent willing to go toe to toe with your pokemon directly.
-Type effectiveness has some merit, but definitely not as multipliers. Ground moves have a limitation of only hitting things on the ground, Ghosts have insubstantial, Psychics are susceptible to their fears, etc.
-Type matters in game, but in universe it seems like there's some reason to use teams of similar pokemon or cute pokemon or just whoever you like with typing rarely actually mattering.
-Battles with trainers, wild pokemon, and outlaws should follow different rules. Wild pokemon should be treated basically like dangerous animals. Trainers follow strict rules (and you can rule as a GM that trainer battles end at -1*HP and just knock the pokemon out without any chance of death). Outlaws likely don't follow the rules and are much smarter than wild pokemon.

So, the two things that have worked for me;
-PCs are trainers. Give the PCs the stats of their pokemon, certain things they can do, even let them teach with Pokemon [Animal] Handling. I even like the idea of all pokemon attacks using the lower of the pokemon's skill and the trainer's Handling skill but right now I haven't implemented that. Fights are done entirely through "summonable allies". If you want to come up with 200, 500, or a 1000 pokemon stats, go ahead, but I just improvise based on online wikis and pokedex entries.
-PCs are pokemon. Basically, a kitchen-sink campaign where traits must be explained by the pokemon you choose. It's basically a "everyone is a super" campaign and with how strong all pokemon seem to be, it's not out of place.

I would very much recommend against actually doing a full right up of all pokemon. Instead, do those as you come across the pokemon and with whatever starters the players have access to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I believe those who feel IQ should be divorced from Per and Will but still cost [20]/level do so because IQ covers so much that only charging [10]/level seems to be undercharging.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maximara View Post
I should mention that Power-Ups 9 feels that HT is underpriced and should be [±12 to ±14]
One fix I really like is moving Basic Speed from HT to IQ and having Basic Move entirely based on DX (and divorcing Per and Will). This seems to put attributes about the proper places for fair prices. I haven't done it because I really like the philosophy of why HT, Luck, Combat Reflexes, etc are all cheap for the players. Note that I wouldn't change any nonPC templates around, namely letting animals keep their current Basic Speed and Move. If I was going to update them, I'd have them base it off DX and Per to get about the right level (if their point total came up, they would have spent points on BS to bring it up to that level).
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While I do not think that GURPS is perfect I do think that it is more balanced than what I am likely to create by GM fiat.

Last edited by kirbwarrior; 09-28-2022 at 06:12 PM. Reason: Ugh, entirely forgot the word "against" which undermined my sentence.
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Old 10-29-2021, 07:26 AM   #26
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Realistic Pokémon-style GURPS mechanics

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Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
Type matters in game, but in universe it seems like there's some reason to use teams of similar pokemon or cute pokemon or just whoever you like with typing rarely actually mattering.
This is probably a "power of friendship" type of thing, honestly. Pokemon and trainers are canonically friends (albeit typically in something of a master/servant relationship, rather than peers), and trainers tend to pick Pokemon based on those they like the appearance of and get along with. So, if Power of Friendship is actually a thing, being friends with your Pokemon can be sufficient to overcome type deficiencies, so having a bunch of Pokemon you get along well with can be better than having a group with type optimization.

I suspect this doesn't fit Zarathustraff's vision for his gritty version of Pokemon, however.
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Old 10-29-2021, 08:31 AM   #27
WingedKagouti
 
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Default Re: Realistic Pokémon-style GURPS mechanics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
This is probably a "power of friendship" type of thing, honestly. Pokemon and trainers are canonically friends (albeit typically in something of a master/servant relationship, rather than peers), and trainers tend to pick Pokemon based on those they like the appearance of and get along with. So, if Power of Friendship is actually a thing, being friends with your Pokemon can be sufficient to overcome type deficiencies, so having a bunch of Pokemon you get along well with can be better than having a group with type optimization.
At least one instance of this in the first season of the anime specifically spelled out that lots of training (ie. levels in the games) can be enough to overcome type differences, but only if there's a notable difference in the training of the two pokemon. Several events hint that Ash's Pikachu is a special case that can't be explained by mere stats. But even if that's not what's going on he still uses it for the majority of his fighting, so it's certainly his highest level pokemon by far in every single season (even those that reset the power with some plot device).

The anime does play a bit fast and loose with some of the mechanics set forth by the games for dramatic effect. A major example being Pikachu using an Electric attack to KO a Ground type that had been doused by water (the gym fight with Brock).
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Old 10-29-2021, 09:33 PM   #28
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Default Re: Realistic Pokémon-style GURPS mechanics

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I suspect this doesn't fit Zarathustraff's vision for his gritty version of Pokemon, however.
Being 'gritty' with Pokemon seems like shooting yourself in the foot, but if we want to ignore the power of friendship feel, then we should really lean into the fact that pokemon are actually really scary. They have power far beyond what their size and intelligence would suggest and humans are absolutely not the top of the food chain. Really lean into them being monsters (in your pocket) and you can have a not-quite-horror campaign with low (60) point PCs and massively powerful monsters duking it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedKagouti View Post
The anime does play a bit fast and loose with some of the mechanics set forth by the games for dramatic effect. A major example being Pikachu using an Electric attack to KO a Ground type that had been doused by water (the gym fight with Brock).
IIRC James implied that Pikachu's ability lets it ignore type immunities with any attacks, which would categorize it as why it's so special and important. Either way, it lines up with what I've seen of the anime (and frankly would like to see that Pikachu show up in a game at some point).
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While I do not think that GURPS is perfect I do think that it is more balanced than what I am likely to create by GM fiat.
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Old 10-30-2021, 06:23 AM   #29
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Default Re: Realistic Pokémon-style GURPS mechanics

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Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
Being 'gritty' with Pokemon seems like shooting yourself in the foot, but if we want to ignore the power of friendship feel, then we should really lean into the fact that pokemon are actually really scary. They have power far beyond what their size and intelligence would suggest and humans are absolutely not the top of the food chain. Really lean into them being monsters (in your pocket) and you can have a not-quite-horror campaign with low (60) point PCs and massively powerful monsters duking it out.
Even in (game) canon Pokemon have nasty aspects. Hypno, for example, could steal children...who are never seen again.

These Pokemon are HUNTING Humans! | The SCIENCE of... Pokemon Sword and Shield looks a reason why some pokemon look the way they do and it is frightening. How EVERY (ALL 809) Pokemon Could Kill You goes even further.

If you look at the more extreme powers things get worse. Gardevoir can make a small black hole to protect it trainer. Problem is any black hole strong enough to do anything would destroy the planet and smaller black hole would evaporate into a burst of Hawking radiation on par with a supernova effectively frying not only its trainer but the planet they are on.
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Old 10-30-2021, 03:32 PM   #30
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Default Re: Realistic Pokémon-style GURPS mechanics

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
Even in (game) canon Pokemon have nasty aspects. Hypno, for example, could steal children...who are never seen again.

These Pokemon are HUNTING Humans! | The SCIENCE of... Pokemon Sword and Shield looks a reason why some pokemon look the way they do and it is frightening. How EVERY (ALL 809) Pokemon Could Kill You goes even further.

If you look at the more extreme powers things get worse. Gardevoir can make a small black hole to protect it trainer. Problem is any black hole strong enough to do anything would destroy the planet and smaller black hole would evaporate into a burst of Hawking radiation on par with a supernova effectively frying not only its trainer but the planet they are on.
Gardevoir is just that strong that it isn't a problem ;) But yeah, absolutely they are frightening. The games go out of their way to hide it.
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While I do not think that GURPS is perfect I do think that it is more balanced than what I am likely to create by GM fiat.
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