Revising GURPS Magic

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Fine. Create an entire new spell list to implement your changes. That would make far more sense than just nerfing Magery and/or mages and leaving the spell list alone.

Who said anything about leaving the spell list alone? As the OP goes through the book chapter by chapter, I have no doubt that tweaks to the spells will be suggested. (OTOH, the stated purpose of the thread is tweaking; so tossing out the existing spell list and building a new one from scratch is not an option.)

Right now though, the chapter under discussion is the one that lays the ground rules for magic, so that's what we're discussing. And one of the biggest issues that exists with the ground rules as written is that they're severely lopsided in favor of the generalist. As things stand, you pretty much have to be an idiot not to max out IQ and Magery and then put exactly one point into every spell you want (or, in the case of prerequisite chains, need). Moving the time/energy/ritual benefits off of absolute level and onto relative level encourages spells to be skills again, not just pseudo-Perks.

And that's not a change you can get by tinkering with individual spells.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Refplace

I disagree strongly here (and with a lot of this thread actually).
Magery is the original Talent and its function is a way to be good at something without buying up IQ.

But GURPS (3e) Magic expected mage player characters to have IQ 14, Magery 3 so they could have skill 15 for [1] per spell. Expectations about skill levels in general were higher in early 3e than late 3e or 4e, but mages were always expected to buy lots of Intelligence and lots of Magery. About the highest possible Intelligence for a new character in 3e was 15, and some mages bought that.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Refplace

I disagree strongly here (and with a lot of this thread actually).
Magery is the original Talent and its function is a way to be good at something without buying up IQ.

I agree. It might be appropriate however to regularize Magery with other talents. Which is to say, make it 15 points per level. with single college magic being 10 points per level. However I like the idea of fatigue discounts being the product of levels bought of the specific spell, and I am in favour of penalizing spells cast without gestures or noise with difficulty modifiers. rather than the current ritual rules.

[dataweaver]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

I agree. It might be appropriate however to regularize Magery with other talents. Which is to say, make it 15 points per level. with single college magic being 10 points per level.

What's your thought about Magery 0? I'm debating between keeping it as is or calling it an Unusual Background that's historically been worth 5 points.

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

However I like the idea of fatigue discounts being the product of levels bought of the specific spell, and I am in favour of penalizing spells cast without gestures or noise with difficulty modifiers. rather than the current ritual rules.

Note that discarding rituals based on relative skill is more lenient than penalizing skill based on absence of rituals. I might even be OK with a small bonus if you choose to use ritual elements that aren't necessary at your skill level, sort of like an equipment bonus. No more than +1 or +2, though.

[Jürgen Hubert]

I just had a thought: Maybe the options from "Alternate Magic Rituals" should require perks, in the manner of the Magic Perks from GURPS Magical Styles.

So we'd get:

"One-Hand Casting": Allows casting spells with one hand, for a -2 penalty

"No-Hand Casting" (Requires "One-Hand Casting"): Allows casting without hand movements, for a -4 penalty

"Still Casting": Allows casting without foot movements, for a -2 penalty

"Soft-Voiced Casting": Allows casting spells while speaking softly, for a -2 penalty.

"Silent Casting" (Requires "Soft-Voiced Casting"): Allows casting without incantations, for a -2 penalty

"Emphatic Casting": By being loud and emphatic with the incantations and body movements and doubling casting time, the caster gets +1 to his effective skill.


I think this would be useful for giving mages more variety - this way, people can generally assume that most mages won't be able to cast spell while bound and gagged, while still allowing the possibility for mages who specialize in such matters.


The only thing I am not quite happy with are the perk names - does anyone have better suggestions?

[Dragondog]

Originally Posted by Jürgen Hubert

"Still Casting": Allows casting without food movements, for a -2 penalty

Emphasis mine

I'm not sure what I should say about that.

[Jürgen Hubert]

Originally Posted by Dragondog

Emphasis mine

I'm not sure what I should say about that.

Foot movements, of course. Fixed.

[dataweaver]

Would you be requiring these Perks once for all of your spells, or once per spell? And why do you suffer a skill penalty if you're already having to invest a character point for this?

More generally, this is an option I wouldn't use, even at one Perk that removes rituals from all spells at no penalty. Oh, the price would be about right; but it would wreak havoc on the flavor of the magic system. No, as much as I prefer the Alternate Rituals option to the skill breakpoints rules, I prefer the relative level option I outlined above over both.

[Gnomasz]

Originally Posted by Jürgen Hubert

I think this would be useful for giving mages more variety - this way, people can generally assume that most mages won't be able to cast spell while bound and gagged, while still allowing the possibility for mages who specialize in such matters.

To be fair, I like it when people shouldn't assume that mere binding will stop a mage. Well known and affordable countermeasure is a useful tool for game balance, but I feel like it just strips mages of some mystery. I imagine some brigands tying up a wizard, blindfolding him (-5 to most spells) and still staying on alert, because it's a mage they're watching. And it feels more interesting then if they relaxed totally, because he's completely disarmed. So I'd leave the flexible rituals open to all spellcasters.

This, and you'd have to decide how your perks interact with No Gestures and No Incantations perks (Is one required for the other? Are they mutually exclusive?) as well as with Easy Casting enhancement on Magery (from Thaumatology).

[Emerald Cat]

Originally Posted by Jürgen Hubert

I think this would be useful for giving mages more variety - this way, people can generally assume that most mages won't be able to cast spell while bound and gagged, while still allowing the possibility for mages who specialize in such matters.

Most mages wouldn't be able to cast spells without rituals even under the normal Alternate Rituals rules. Getting rid of all of the ritual components costs -10, or -8 if they don't bind the mage's feet. Mages that can consistently soak a penalty that big would be rare in most settings. So people would generally assume that the mage can't cast while bound and gagged.