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Old 07-30-2006, 05:18 PM   #1
Sagitta
 
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Default animals in the afterlife

Continuing the discussion that started in Michael's Word before the Fall about how animals end up in Jordi's Savannah, and how a few racehorses ended up in Hell.

I'll quickly repeat my suggestions that:
1) only a being with a (nonzero) Will can choose a destiny or fate
2) this requires at least 1 Celestial Force
3) nonhuman animals do not normally have any Celestial Forces
4) some exceptional animals have the potential for an extra (possibly Celestial) Force
5) it should also be possible to bestow a Force on a living animal, but few Superiors would consider this a good investment
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Old 07-30-2006, 05:33 PM   #2
Ophidian
 
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Default Re: animals in the afterlife

You know, I don't recall any racehorses in Hell.
With the exception of a demon whose vessel is a racehorse.

Sidenote:
Something I should have noted in the other thread when discussing whether humans can really be "selfless" or not; whether or not they can in real life is somewhat irrelevant to the fact that in In Nomine canon, they can.
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Old 07-30-2006, 05:40 PM   #3
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Default Re: animals in the afterlife

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagitta
1) only a being with a (nonzero) Will can choose a destiny or fate
2) this requires at least 1 Celestial Force
You can have a positive Will without having a Celestial Force. The sum of your Will and Perception just can't exceed three.

That being said, it makes sense that you can't get into Heaven without a Celestial Force, but I'm not sure that the evidence backs that up. For example, what about all those butterflies?
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Old 07-30-2006, 08:13 PM   #4
William
 
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Default Re: animals in the afterlife

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ophidian
You know, I don't recall any racehorses in Hell.
With the exception of a demon whose vessel is a racehorse.
There are indeed a few: Valefor stole their souls from the Savannah, and Jordi is still furious on the matter.

It would be very tricky to get them back, too. My best guess on how it was done (and how it was done) would be to use the Song of Transferral to lend the Song of Possession, and get the horse by force or trickery, or persuasion to attempt to possess someone who owned a large enough Force Catcher; the owner of the Force Catcher would then head to his destination with his prize.
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Old 07-30-2006, 08:39 PM   #5
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Default Re: animals in the afterlife

Which sparks a random idea that the Line Editor and any future authors may feel free to snaffle for a future Janus writeup, should they so choose.

Jimmy "Scuzz" Denkins

Scuzz is either the luckiest damned soul in Heaven, or in a special kind of Hell. It worries him that he is not sure which is the case.

Mr. Denkins, a small-time thief in life who met his Fate and was sent to Valefor's Principality upon death, is having a political point made of him. Employing a combination of the Songs of Transferral and Possession and a Force Catcher, a demon going Renegade stole his soul from that Principality and brought it to Heaven as a token for Janus (who successfully redeemed the demon). He is now under lock and key beneath the Council Spires, the subject of intense observation and occasional noninvasive experimentation.

Jimmy no longer suffers regular beatings and mind control, but he also cannot exit his prison cell and wander with even the illusion of freedom. He finds the Light of Heaven nondamaging but uncomfortable, as uncomfortable as his inability to lie to his angelic psychologists. The Light of Heaven near Jacob's Ladder, however, he finds painful, and he has no wish at present to make the ascent, so he stays in the Lower Heavens.

Scuzz may make an interesting encounter in Heaven should a group of angels have some need of information or experience the GM may give the damned soul; the general Heavenly public is not permitted access to his prison. Scuzz is not a nice soul by any means, and has no particular gratitude for his current state. He is poorly educated but streetwise for a crook of 1920 New York.
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Old 07-30-2006, 09:31 PM   #6
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Default Re: animals in the afterlife

Quote:
Originally Posted by William
There are indeed a few: Valefor stole their souls from the Savannah, and Jordi is still furious on the matter.
What source is that from??? ;S
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Old 07-31-2006, 08:42 AM   #7
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Default Re: animals in the afterlife

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagitta
3) nonhuman animals do not normally have any Celestial Forces
Of course this isn't true in canon. Cats for example have normally 1 corporeal and 1 celestial force.
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Old 07-31-2006, 09:05 AM   #8
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Default Re: animals in the afterlife

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ophidian
What source is that from??? ;S

Superiors 4: Rogues To Riches
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Old 07-31-2006, 09:19 AM   #9
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Default Re: animals in the afterlife

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ophidian
You know, I don't recall any racehorses in Hell.
With the exception of a demon whose vessel is a racehorse.

Sidenote:
Something I should have noted in the other thread when discussing whether humans can really be "selfless" or not; whether or not they can in real life is somewhat irrelevant to the fact that in In Nomine canon, they can.
If you want to go with that then the same could be said with animals. It doesn't matter whether we believe they can be selfless or not since they obviously can in In Nomine.

Also, as I remember the actual distinction between going to Heaven and Hell is wether you achieved your destiny or your fate with the selfish/selfless being an indicator of what direction you were likely to suceed in. At least the way I'm running my game its the action more than the motive most of the time that wins in the long run. For example we had a soldior of Hell who the pc's killed w/ out finding out the story behind. She was a soldior of Hell because she thought it was the only way to save her childs life. She didn't like the things that she had to do. But she made the sacrafice for the child having never met an Angel and believing the Demons that the Angels didn't care about humans. She did some very bad things in the name of science meeting her fate- had the Angels spent a bit more time they could have turned her around and she could have done some wonderful things meeting her destiny and winning herself a new chance w/ reincarnation instead of eternal damnation. By the same token looking at animals and using that as a thread then an animal could have a destiny as simple as being there to confort the poor abused little girl as she die- Or we could go w/ animals are too simple to have a fate or destiny and they just get a trip to the Savana curtasy of Jordi when they die and leave it to PC's to wonder if that is the normal order of things or if Jordi aranged it.
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Old 07-31-2006, 12:27 PM   #10
Ophidian
 
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Default Re: animals in the afterlife

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexondria
Also, as I remember the actual distinction between going to Heaven and Hell is wether you achieved your destiny or your fate with the selfish/selfless being an indicator of what direction you were likely to suceed in.
It's more complicated but I don't recall which book it's in.
Most mortals never achieve their Fate _or_ their Destiny.
A few achieve both.
Where those wind up will depend greatly on their "selfish/unselfish" balance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexondria
At least the way I'm running my game its the action more than the motive most of the time that wins in the long run.
I don't really like that approach, because a "selfish" person could do the "right" thing whenever possible to intentionally achive Heaven.
Which I think is different from your example though.
Your example character could be considered "selfish" as she's more concerned about her daughter's life than her soul or her daughter's and is willing to do what she knows is evil to preserve _a_ life...
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