Why use a SMG instead of a machine pistol?

[HANS]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Can't do that, it would never do. Then you'd have a case where a weapon firing the same cartridges magically became less controllable with the addition of a stock, merely because it now has an option of fully-automatic fire.

The Rcl increase would always apply when you're firing bursts, not when you're adding the stock.

Originally Posted by Icelander

For a 100 lbs. girl, years of practise might be required to acquire sufficient skill to overcome the simply fact of physics that she's throw far more off-balance by the recoil.

Yes. But that's because she doesn't meet MinST. The other way around doesn't really hold true.

Cheers

HANS

[copeab]

(on increasing machine pistol recoil)

Originally Posted by Icelander

Can't do that, it would never do. Then you'd have a case where a weapon firing the same cartridges magically became less controllable with the addition of a stock, merely because it now has an option of fully-automatic fire.

I think he means only in automatic fire. In semi-automatic fire, with or without stock attacked, Rcl is unchanged. When fired automatically, Rcl is increased by one (I assume this is with stock; without stock, Rcl should go up even more). So, in effect, machine pistols would have more than one Rcl number.

[Icelander]

Indeed, that would be the 'when firing at RoF 4+, add +1 to Rcl number' solution. Which I personally like.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Indeed, that would be the 'when firing at RoF 4+, add +1 to Rcl number' solution. Which I personally like.

Dunno, one's accuracy % already drops drastically for each extra bullet of RoF.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Dunno, one's accuracy % already drops drastically for each extra bullet of RoF.

Yes, but when using a pistol imperfectly modified to function as an SMG, it drops more rapidly than when using a real two-handed weapon.

Either we penalise automatic pistols or we give bonuses to SMGs, because it is not realistic that these should be so close to equivalent in game terms.

Note that under pretty much all other conditions than firing a mounted weapon at an immobile paper target, automatic firing does have a deeply negative effect on your hit percentage. It's good for a lot of things, tactically, but there's a reason pretty much every authority on combat shooting insists that the most accurate fire is aimed single shots.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by copeab

I remember that, at least the general intent: you have to test the stupid ideas, too.

We did this very deliberately with a few degenerate builds in the Technical Grappling playtest. The ST 5, 500 (or 1,500?) pound iron golem comes immediately to mind.

While the comment "this is where we start pelting the player with d4s, peanuts, or other projectiles" DID come up in the discussion, testing this build provided us with valuable edge-case information.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Yes, but when using a pistol imperfectly modified to function as an SMG, it drops more rapidly than when using a real two-handed weapon.

I'll just toss in here that some machine pistols are not modified semi-automatic pistols; the Stechkin APS and HK VP90 come to mind.

[apoc527]

Originally Posted by HANS

No. You are restricted by minimum RoF (p. B408). High RoF also has the very real effect that the faster you shot, the faster you stand there with an empty gun. Finally, note that the Rapid Fire table (p. B373) is not linear. Past RoF 16, you get much less return for ever more bullets spent. Most machine pistols have RoF 15+.

This should be a more explicit rule for many guns. Currently, I read the B408 rule as only applying to weapons with an ! after their RoF, such as most machineguns. This minimum becomes quarter RoF, which for a RoF 15 Machinepistol, is 3 (or 4, if you round up). That's no different than semi-auto fire.

I have plenty of experience firing guns, but NONE firing anything with a selector switch or full automatic capability. It seems to me that it's not super easy to fire short bursts without training. I'm pondering a house rule for ALL weapons set to full auto (i.e. no burst limiter is used) that goes like this:

Your ability to make short controlled bursts depends on your relative skill level:

Skill Level....Min RoF
DX+0....3/4 RoF
DX+1....1/2 RoF
DX+2....1/4 RoF

Maybe it's not THAT hard, and it should be more like 2/3, 1/2, 1/4, but eh, I just think the "choose any RoF between 1 and max" is a little generous for guns even without the ! symbol.

[gilbertocarlos]

Originally Posted by HANS

No. You are restricted by minimum RoF (p. B408). High RoF also has the very real effect that the faster you shot, the faster you stand there with an empty gun. Finally, note that the Rapid Fire table (p. B373) is not linear. Past RoF 16, you get much less return for ever more bullets spent. Most machine pistols have RoF 15+.

The Mauser M32 have Selective Fire, the Glock 18 too, same with the beretta 93R, so, no, you are not limited by minimum RoF.
Are you saying that because I have the option of firing more rounds this is a disadvantage? I can always choose to fire 10 rounds instead of the 15+.

Originally Posted by HANS

It's not "as good." It's just roughly the same size and weighs less. Which is actually realistic, by the way.

Same bulk, lower weight, in GURPS terms, this is just the advantage of lower weight.

Originally Posted by HANS

Regarding Acc, yes. That's because there's only Acc 2 or Acc 3 to chose from. Granularity. Range, no. A machine pistol in 9x19mm has Range 160/1,800, a SMG 170/1,900. Not much, but realistic. Dmg, no. The difference is small but realistic.

The mauser have a range of 180/2,000.
If you think that the 5,55% difference is important, you surely should consider the more than 10 times greater difference in weight.

Originally Posted by HANS

I've already said, twice, that a usuable solution would be to worsen Rcl by +1.

Can you give a guideline of weight? does a 4.2lb M32 will have that? or a 2.6lb glock 18? what about the Steyr TMP 3,8lbs?

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by copeab

I'll just toss in here that some machine pistols are not modified semi-automatic pistols; the Stechkin APS and HK VP90 come to mind.

That's fair and the line between 'effective SMG' and 'ineffective machine-pistol' is probably not very far off from those. Going by personal feeling, I think that the MP5K is substantial and ergonomic enough to qualify as a 'full-blown' SMG that needs no extra penalty like this. The APS and VP70 don't qualify, at least not to me.