Housecat-sized octopus vs. SCUBA-equipped commoner

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Human level and type of sapience I mean. Too often inhuman is just code for irrational monster.

Well, the level seems to be very clearly below that of dolphins, chimps etc. The type does not seem to be all that similar to anything mammalian.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Not impossible for an unusually smart octopus, I agree. I just don't like how it's in vogue now to grossly overestimate their "human-ness" the way they used to for elephants.

references please? this sounds good!

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Human level and type of sapience I mean. Too often inhuman is just code for irrational monster.

Thats the result of being lazy, I think. And so often people decide they will try and end up with a irrational being because they can't separate humanity and rationality (people are quite irrational about that word, by the way). Though with an octopus, I don't know how rational it would be.

[Trigonomicon]

Wait, why on earth do octopuses have Bad Grip? Their tentacles are covered in suction cups.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by ericthered

references please? this sounds good!

....

You don't remember when they kept pushing the intelligence of elephants beyond chimp levels in the media? They are amazing creatures, but simply not linguistically as adept as apes or some monkeys by a long shot.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Trigonomicon

Wait, why on earth do octopuses have Bad Grip? Their tentacles are covered in suction cups.

Writers use that disadvantage to mean poor manual dexterity, despite it having a completely different effect. Oddly, the missing finger or thumb would have a more reasonable effect despite not sounding remotely appropriate.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Well, the level seems to be very clearly below that of dolphins, chimps etc. The type does not seem to be all that similar to anything mammalian.

Their somatic / manual dexterity intelligence seems far greater than apes. But I doubt they have much in the way of linguistic / social intelligence.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Well, there's strangulation, which is serious business given the modifiers. Not IWinButton serious, but not something to be ignored.

This is, I think, where things break down. Invertebrates with no exoskeletons aren't good at constricting - octopi don't squish fish, they bite them with hard mouth parts, and for a darn good reason.

Hydrostatic pressure is NOT good for coiling around something and tightening up. An o-ring muscle (like the one that snaps the beak shut) works great, but octopus arms aren't built like that, and plain old don't have leverage. Suckers provide grip, but not leverage.

What hydrostatic limbs (and suckers for gripping) are better at is holding on while more serious body parts go to work. Octopi and squid have beaks, starfish and snails have rasping tongues, and some snails of course have venomous harpoons.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Writers use that disadvantage to mean poor manual dexterity, despite it having a completely different effect. Oddly, the missing finger or thumb would have a more reasonable effect despite not sounding remotely appropriate.

Sometimes I think everyone's forgotten about poor old Hamfisted.

[Kabufu]

Octopi have very poor proprioception and can't really tell where their arms are in relation to their main body or their other arms by any means other than looking at them. They have very good grip with their suction cups, but poor ability to many things at once with their arms. Bruno also pointed out that they don't have much in the way of leverage.

On the other side of the equation, most experienced scuba divers carry a knife on their person while diving. I'd assume that a proper adventurer would have a knife as well.

[lwcamp]

Originally Posted by ericthered

And should the octopus really have +12 to grapple?

Once an octopus has stuck on to you, it is very difficult to get it off until it decides to let you go (or, presumably, if you kill it). I really doubt a +12 to strangulation is justified, but I can see +12 to maintain a grapple.

Of course, the real reason for this is the suckers, not the extra arms.

Luke