Newbie Combat Questions

[InexplicableVic]

So, I am new to GURPS and was interested in messing around with sample combat with my son. We first did not roll, just used the combat example of “Melee 2” from - Using www.themook.net’s combat example (the basic version) as a starting point. Then we said, OK, let’s just do this as a sample, let’s see how it works. Hilarity ensues as Arthur is either killed or is almost dead in two seconds. But that raises some questions. Here’s the description of the combat plus the questions.

Round 1: Zach readies his mace, Arthur readies his broadsword

Round 2: Zach (ST12, DX12, Axe/Mace-16, 2d+1 cr) is fighting Arthur (ST12, HT12, Leather Armor, no helmet, Dodge-8, Parry-11, Broadsword-14), who is 2 yards away. Zach has a higher speed, so he goes first, decides to move and attack (-4 to hit), random hit location (B400).[Q1] He rolls a 7 against a net skill of 12. That’s a possible hit.

Arthur decides to parry rather than dodge. He rolls a 15; he does not parry. Zach rolls to determine hit location, rolls a 4 (skull!). This is bad; Arthur has no helmet. Zach rolls damage (2d+1 crushing), and rolls two 6s—13 basic damage (max), and presumably[Q2] Arthur also suffers knockback of one yard (B378, 1 yd for every multiple of basic damage of ST -2, so 10 for Arthur). Since Arthur’s DR on his unprotected skull is only 2 (B399), the blow does 11 penetrating damage, but…against the skull, there is a 4x multiplier (B399), so that’s 44 hp of injury!

Two things: Arthur has just suffered a major wound (B420), which requires a HT roll to avoid knockdown and stunning. However, Arthur had 12 HP, but is now down to -32, which is almost -3xHP. I assume that before resolving the knockdown and stunning, he first[Q3] has to roll immediately against HT or die (B419).

As I understand it, various possibilities exist here:

1. Arthur rolls a 15. He’s dead. Sorry, bud. You lasted about 1 second in your first combat, enough time to ready your broadsword.

2. Arthur rolls a 13 or 14. He has a mortal wound (B423). He is incapacitated and may very well die, but not immediately.

3. Arthur rolls an 11, so he does not immediately die. He then (?) rolls v. HT to avoid being knocked down and stunned (B419). Blows to the head require a roll against HT with a 10 modifier because it’s the skull (B420). He is rolling against a net -2.

a. Arthur rolls anything other than a 3 or 4. He’s knocked down and stunned. Presumably in this specific situation, he is also unconscious, having failed by 5 or more, because he can only succeed on a critical success [Q4].

b. Arthur rolls a 3 or a 4. He’s neither knocked down nor stunned, but he’s messed up. At the beginning of his turn, Arthur needs to roll against unconsciousness at HT-2 (-1 for every full multiple below 0, B419). He thus needs to roll a 10 or better to stay conscious. He’s also suffering from shock.

Questions:

[Q1]: Do you roll for the random hit location before the defense, or after? I think I screwed Arthur’s player here, because if he knew it was the skull, perhaps he would have parried and retreated, possibly adding feverish defense, etc. So I’m guessing I should have rolled before the defense, yes?

[Q2]:Is knockback applied here, and is it applied first? I assume so for the former; I guess it doesn’t matter when it is applied for the latter—or does it? Perhaps in strange situations (knockback into a pool of acid?)

[Q3]: Which takes precedence—the roll v. death for going more than -1xHP, or the roll for the stunning/knockdown?

[Q4]: Correct on the unconsciousness here?

Thanks. If anything, I guess this confirms that GURPS combat can be extremely lethal.

[Nereidalbel]

1. Choosing to take a hit is almost never a good plan to begin with, so attempt a defense any time it's not absolutely necessary to get hit.

2. A sword is not very effective at delivering knockback. Had Zach used a maul instead, then we would worry about it.

3. You roll for both; declare which you're rolling for first.

4. Shock only applies for one second, so if he's still standing somehow, he should attempt to All Out Defense, or just surrender.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

2. A sword is not very effective at delivering knockback. Had Zach used a maul instead, then we would worry about it.

Zach has a mace. 13 cr might be enough to cause some, though it's unlikely to matter much in this case.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Zach has a mace. 13 cr might be enough to cause some, though it's unlikely to matter much in this case.

If anything, it just means the Knockdown from being hit in the head will cause him to land on his side, not his face.

[InexplicableVic]

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

1. Choosing to take a hit is almost never a good plan to begin with, so attempt a defense any time it's not absolutely necessary to get hit.

Sorry if it was unclear; Arthur did attempt a defense (parry, which failed). However, I can see a situation where someone might not spend a fatigue point for Feverish Defense if the attack location was, say, the foot. To that end, I was wondering if the attacker should find out where he attacked first, to let the defender decide what type of defense he/she will use, or if he/she will also choose to retreat as well, instead of standing his/her ground.

Originally Posted by Nereidalbel

2. A sword is not very effective at delivering knockback. Had Zach used a maul instead, then we would worry about it.

Actually, Zach was using a mace. I assume he gets knockback because of this sentence on B378: "When you hit someone very hard, you may knock him away from you! This is called “knockback.” Only crushing and cutting attacks can cause knockback. A crushing attack can cause knockback regardless of whether it penetrates DR. A cutting attack can cause knockback only if it fails to penetrate DR."

As I read further, though, I suppose Arthur can resist the knockback, leading to another question--would Arthur have to apply the effect of shock to this roll? Or is that assumed in the knockback rule?

[whswhs]

As far as [1] is concerned, I don't normally apply random hit location in melee; I figure that you can see what you're swinging at and so can your target. I would make an exception for a wild swing attack, but ordinarily, I take random hit location to be for ranged combat—and even there, I'll allow a player to say "I'm shooting at the center of mass" (Torso hit location), which has a -0 penalty(!).

But as Nereidalbel says, it's almost always a good idea to attempt a defense.

I don't normally pay much attention to knockback, as realistically few attacks will fling a person back (a shove or flying tackle could be an exception). A mace blow to the head probably would have a downward or sideways vector rather than a backward one. Knockdown is another question, and goes with the roll to avoid being stunned; in all probability the person slammed in the skull with a mace is lying on the ground afterward.

There's not much point to rolling for stun/knockdown if the character is dead. On the other hand, there's a sense of dramatic cumulation if you roll for the lesser effects first—your character is in shock for -4 to skill, is stunned and knocked down, is unconscious—but didn't die! So I guess it's whether you care more about minimizing unnecessary dice rolls, or about maximizing drama.

If Arthur doesn't die, whether he's still conscious is still an issue and must be rolled for.

Bill Stoddard

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by whswhs

As far as [1] is concerned, I don't normally apply random hit location in melee; I figure that you can see what you're swinging at and so can your target. I would make an exception for a wild swing attack, but ordinarily, I take random hit location to be for ranged combat—and even there, I'll allow a player to say "I'm shooting at the center of mass" (Torso hit location), which has a -0 penalty(!).

By the book random hit location is almost never mandatory, but the attacker can choose to use it. And doing so can be advantageous.

[InexplicableVic]

Related question: is Move and Attack with a melee weapon max skill of 9? For some reason I thought that was for ranged. I'll have to check the book (presently looking at a combat cheat sheet).

[JP42]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

By the book random hit location is almost never mandatory, but the attacker can choose to use it. And doing so can be advantageous.

Yeah, I recall the rules being pretty clear. Target a location (including the torso a -0) or roll on the table for 'whatever presents itself.'

That said, I'm torn on the original question - if someone targets a specific location, the targeted player knows where the blow is aimed even if the character doesn't. In a random situation, I'd normally roll before the defense was applied, but now I'm leaning towards rolling hit location before defense is rolled.

[JP42]

Originally Posted by Spartan506

Related question: is Move and Attack with a melee weapon max skill of 9? For some reason I thought that was for ranged. I'll have to check the book (presently looking at a combat cheat sheet).

The opposite actually. Ranged gives a -2 or -Bulk, whichever is worse, while melee gives a -4 and adjusted skill can't exceed 9.