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Old 06-07-2019, 03:00 PM   #11
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Default Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles

Sorry, but every time I see this thread's title I expect it to be about a 'very special' anime...
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Old 06-07-2019, 08:41 PM   #12
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Default Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles

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Originally Posted by CarrionPeacock View Post
What's the 2019 updated way of handling tentacles? Older books uses Extra Arms (Extra-Flexible) but that's wrong, Extra Arms assumes a human arm, and a tentacle alone is not nearly as dextrous as human hands. Searching the forum I've seem many suggestions like using foot manipulators, applying No Fine Manipulator bonus to it, treat each 5 tentacles as an arm (each tentacle is a finger), treating tentacles as allies, etc etc. I couldn't find it, but has there ever been some consensus on this subject?
While we're at it, does Invertebrate affect grappling? Does an octopus with invertebrate use only 1/4 of its ST?
Actually, Extra-Flexible under Extra Arms specifically mentions tentacles: "Extra-Flexible: Limbs with this enhancement are more flexible than human arms, like tentacles or an elephant’s trunk.”

No Fine Manipulator is not viable per "If you have a beak, tongue, prehensile tail, etc. that is as good as a hand, you do not have No Fine Manipulators!" (sic)

Now Bad Grip on the other hand makes far more sense.

So Extra Arms (Extra-Flexible +50%; Long +100%) (and perhaps Extra Attack) with Bad Grip seems to be the best fit IMHO.
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Old 06-07-2019, 08:45 PM   #13
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Default Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles

Ham-fisted might be a better fit than Bad Grip, as the latter affects most combat rolls. OTOH, for a cephalopod that has fine 'finger' control Bad Grip might be appropriate. It all depends on just what you're trying to model.
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Old 06-08-2019, 12:17 AM   #14
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Default Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
Now Bad Grip on the other hand makes far more sense.
From what I read while working on Template Toolkit 2, Bad Grip is a *really* poor fit to an octopus's tentacles. They can exert a lot of force in holding onto things.

On the other hand, you could very plausibly give them Ham-Fisted. A cephalopod's tentacles don't report back to the brain in much detail; their ability to bend at every point means they have too much information to deal with. Instead each arm has its own local nerve centers that control most of its motions.
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Old 06-08-2019, 06:06 PM   #15
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Default Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles

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From what I read while working on Template Toolkit 2, Bad Grip is a *really* poor fit to an octopus's tentacles. They can exert a lot of force in holding onto things.

On the other hand, you could very plausibly give them Ham-Fisted. A cephalopod's tentacles don't report back to the brain in much detail; their ability to bend at every point means they have too much information to deal with. Instead each arm has its own local nerve centers that control most of its motions.
I was basing my choice of Bad Grip over Ham-Fisted on the Octosap (Bio-Tech 91): Extra Arms (6; Extra-Flexible, +50%) [90] [...] Bad Grip 1 [-5]

So you have changed your mind about the modeling of an Octopus tentacles since that book came out?
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Old 06-08-2019, 06:37 PM   #16
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Default Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
I was basing my choice of Bad Grip over Ham-Fisted on the Octosap (Bio-Tech 91): Extra Arms (6; Extra-Flexible, +50%) [90] [...] Bad Grip 1 [-5]

So you have changed your mind about the modeling of an Octopus tentacles since that book came out?
Different authors, Bill edited Bio-Tech but David Pulver and David Morgan-Mar wrote it.
Even then though thats a specific gene modded creature so its tentacles may differ from other tentacle types. Heck I recall a crayfish discussion where its tentacles were not treated as arms at all.

Also that book was published in 2007 so that is a possibility too.
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Old 06-08-2019, 07:17 PM   #17
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Default Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
I was basing my choice of Bad Grip over Ham-Fisted on the Octosap (Bio-Tech 91): Extra Arms (6; Extra-Flexible, +50%) [90] [...] Bad Grip 1 [-5]

So you have changed your mind about the modeling of an Octopus tentacles since that book came out?
Yes, I have, partly because I have read the Bad Grip disadvantage very closely while working on later books and noticed that it basically makes you unable to climb, and also partly because I have read several books about cephalopods and learned about how strong their suckers are. Anything that can do what an octopus can do doesn't strike me as having Bad Grip.

(I took my first close look while working on Powers: The Weird, and then again while working on Template Toolkit 2: Races. The exact lists of things the two traits hinder are slightly but importantly different.)
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Old 06-08-2019, 07:49 PM   #18
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Default Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles

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Different authors, Bill edited Bio-Tech but David Pulver and David Morgan-Mar wrote it.
Even then though thats a specific gene modded creature so its tentacles may differ from other tentacle types. Heck I recall a crayfish discussion where its tentacles were not treated as arms at all.

Also that book was published in 2007 so that is a possibility too.
Actually, Bio-Tech has "Additional Material by William Barton, Eric Funk, Steve Jackson, and William H. Stoddard"

More over my late father and mother were old school printers and in those days the editor was "responsible" for making sure the writer/software didn't "cause problems."

My mother gave me three darkly comical examples.

One of the local papers computer program broke "therapist" as "the-rapist" and the editor didn't catch it and that caused a lot of problems for the paper.

Another one was a typo about a man 'who shot himself in the bathroom' except the typesetter goofed and used an "i" instead of an "o" in "shot". This sparked the somewhat tasteless joke around the area of "Well, the man chose the best place for it."

The last was the Directory for the State University which she personally edited. The program kept messing up until desperate they instructed her to 'make sure the President's and Vice Presidents' name are spelled correctly and run with it'.

Edit: Bill has confirmed he changed his mind regarding the use of Bad Grip and the reasoning for the change is very solid. Ham fisted does fit things much better.

Last edited by maximara; 06-08-2019 at 08:37 PM.
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Old 06-08-2019, 08:08 PM   #19
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Default Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
... broke "therapist" as "the-rapist" ...

... typo about a man 'who shot himself in the bathroom' except the typesetter goofed and used an "i" instead of an "o" in "shot"...

... 'make sure the President's and Vice Presidents' name are spelled correctly and run with it'...

... Hoam fist ...
Yes. All errors a good editor would have caught.
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Old 06-09-2019, 01:15 AM   #20
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Default Re: [Basic] Frustrated by Tentacles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
Even then though thats a specific gene modded creature so its tentacles may differ from other tentacle types.
Officially, no:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIO91
The only change made to an ordinary octopus was to
raise IQ. The only unintended disadvantage was Stress
Atavism. All other advantages and disadvantages are native
to octopuses.
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