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Old 03-09-2016, 05:01 AM   #1
KataH
 
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Default Hit to Torso, Roll 1d, 1= Vitals MA contradicts Basic and HT

While making an advanced Hit Location chart I noticed what may be an error in Martial Arts when it comes to hits to the Torso and the subsequent d6 roll where a 1 one hits the vitals.
Martial Arts, p137 for the Torso states:
Torso: On a hit with a crushing, impaling, piercing, or tightbeam burning attack, roll 1d. On a 1, it hits the vitals.
High Tech, p162, Body Hits (Torso) states:
Whenever an attack that inflicts impaling, piercing, or tight-beam burning damage hits the torso, roll 1d. On a 1, it actually strikes the vitals,
Martial Arts says a 'crushing' attack can hit the vitals while High Tech does not list crushing.
Basic Campaigns, p399 states: Certain attacks can target the vitals for increased damage. Increase the wounding modifier for an impaling or any piercing attack to x3. Increase the wounding modifier for a tight-beam burning attack (see box) to x2. Other attacks cannot target the vitals.
It too does not list 'Crushing' as a viable attack vs the Vitals.
Since my books for High Tech and Basic Campaigns were published after Martial Arts, and there is nothing in the official Errata to address this - I can only assume they take precedence and that Martial Arts is wrong.
Am I correct?

Thanks,
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Old 03-09-2016, 05:08 AM   #2
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Default Re: Hit to Torso, Roll 1d, 1= Vitals MA contradicts Basic and HT

MA has rules for striking Vitals with Crushing attacks. And so includes rules for it in its random hit location table.

The other books do not have rules for striking vitals with crushing and attacks, and so do not include it.


If you use ALL the rules for all three books, then you should allow cr to hit vitals as per the rules for it in MA. (Ie. knockdown roll and pentalty to Major wounds, but not x3 dam).


...The reason the rule is in MA and not HT and LT is because it's relevant for MA where most combats are about making precise strikes with unarmed attacks... or blunt trauma weapons like staffs or nunchakos and so on. HT is about guns and piercing damage. LT about weapons, mostly sharp or pointy ones ie. impaling or cutting.
It probably could have been included in HT and LT but might have been left out intentionally to save space or an oversight as it's rarely important for those type of settings.

Last edited by Maz; 03-09-2016 at 05:13 AM.
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Old 03-09-2016, 05:26 AM   #3
KataH
 
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Default Re: Hit to Torso, Roll 1d, 1= Vitals MA contradicts Basic and HT

You know you may be right because Low Tech, p102 states for Chest: If a crushing, piercing, or impaling attack strikes the chest, roll 1d; on a 1, the vitals are hit.
Since it was published December 2010 it would seem to be the most up-to-date.
So in this case it would appear that Basic and High Tech are the ones in error.


(Note: I can understand why tightbeam burning was left out of the Low Tech book)
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Last edited by KataH; 03-09-2016 at 05:27 AM. Reason: Fixed page number reference
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Old 03-09-2016, 05:28 AM   #4
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Default Re: Hit to Torso, Roll 1d, 1= Vitals MA contradicts Basic and HT

Quote:
Originally Posted by KataH View Post
You know you may be right because Low Tech, p100 states for Chest: If a crushing, piercing, or impaling attack strikes the chest, roll 1d; on a 1, the vitals are hit.
Since it was published December 2010 it would seem to be the most up-to-date.
So in this case it would appear that Basic and High Tech are the ones in error.
It's not really a case of any of the books being in error, more a case of Martial Arts providing optional, additional rules for these things. You don't have to use them, you can just go the Basic Set route, but Martial Arts provides them as options because Martial Arts is all about fighting, so it includes more options for things related to fighting.
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Old 03-09-2016, 06:21 AM   #5
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Default Re: Hit to Torso, Roll 1d, 1= Vitals MA contradicts Basic and HT

If you're interested in a more-or-less complete hit location table, I've done one (See signature)
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Old 03-09-2016, 06:52 AM   #6
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Default Re: Hit to Torso, Roll 1d, 1= Vitals MA contradicts Basic and HT

First, note: GURPS rules do not form a single fully consistent ruleset. Taken all together you will find multiple incompatible ways to handle the same thing. This is intentional. Expanded rules for presented in later books often supersede older rules, if you choose to use the expanded rules in your game. As a consequence, you should not expect your Basic Set to encompass all rules from other books, no matter how recent a print batch it is.


Second, note that your quote from High Tech doesn't actually say that a Crushing attack can't hit the Vitals. It doesn't include the possibility, so with the Basic Set + High Tech only, one would rightly conclude that it cannot, but with the addition of Martial Arts there's no reason not to accept that it can.
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Old 03-09-2016, 10:45 AM   #7
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Default Re: Hit to Torso, Roll 1d, 1= Vitals MA contradicts Basic and HT

HT was released only a few months after MA, so assuming everyone would be familiar with the rules for attacking Vitals with Crushing attacks would be a bad idea. At the same time, HT isn't really an appropriate place to introduce such a rule, as the vast, vast majority of weapons there do Piercing damage. So, rather than waste precious space explaining a rule that only those likely to already have MA would see much use out of, or include the mention of Crushing damage without explanation, they opted to just leave it out.

That's assuming Kromm (about the only one who would have had access to both manuscripts) even noticed the small discrepancy, and The Powers That Be made the decision I noted above. It's entirely possible that particular section was written and approved of before the new rule from MA was even written!
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Old 03-10-2016, 10:43 PM   #8
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Default Re: Hit to Torso, Roll 1d, 1= Vitals MA contradicts Basic and HT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
If you're interested in a more-or-less complete hit location table, I've done one (See signature)
Thanks but your table includes locations and details from books I do not have and is missing details from the books I do have. I will be using Basic, High Tech, Martial Arts, and Low Tech. I like your format though, might borrow from that.
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Old 03-11-2016, 06:06 AM   #9
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Default Re: Hit to Torso, Roll 1d, 1= Vitals MA contradicts Basic and HT

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Originally Posted by KataH View Post
Thanks but your table includes locations and details from books I do not have and is missing details from the books I do have. I will be using Basic, High Tech, Martial Arts, and Low Tech. I like your format though, might borrow from that.
Of course I can't help with the products you don't have, and I understand not wanting them cluttering up your table. I'm curious about missing details, though - I still have a little space to work with (very little) but if it's something other than the weapon breakage rules, I might be able to squeeze it in.

I've made a commitment to only two pages, so you can print it on the front and back of a single sheet and stick it in the front of a book or binder or whatever; this leaves me with limited space. If you're aiming for an entirely digital format, either reflowing as per HTML or targeting a specific device screen ("My phone") you'll obviously face different constraints.
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