08-08-2011, 06:34 PM | #21 | ||
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Re: Need help with CAG/Delta/SOFD-D Operator
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No, there was no shot clock mentioned. The 3 seconds might be a bit of a stretch, but I've been flashbanged in training, and even when you don't know its coming, 6 - 10 seconds is about the max before the effects start wearing off. If the assault takes 6 or more seconds, the Assaulters and Hostages are in DEEP trouble. |
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08-08-2011, 06:41 PM | #22 | ||
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Re: Need help with CAG/Delta/SOFD-D Operator
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For what it's worth, this is exactly how the SAS does it. They always use live rounds in their shoot-house (that's where Beckwith got the idea), and it makes for realistic training. Granted, new trainees spend hours rehearsing, practicing, and walking through this scenario before the attempt to execute. And it's not until the develop the skills to do it consistently that they put live people in the rooms. Quote:
Still, I have retracted my earlier assessment that the operators were using MandA, and instead that they were using AoA(Determined). |
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08-08-2011, 07:17 PM | #23 | |||
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Seoul, Korea
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Re: Need help with CAG/Delta/SOFD-D Operator
You're friends were nothing special before the went to Ranger school. But I've had friends that went to Ranger school. They were most assuredly something special after they graduated. Remember, this isn't like Basic, graduation isn't basically assured unless you really screw the goose. The Rangers can afford to be picky and they are.
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But even without the sling, if you redo the math for AoA(Determined) and targeting the Face instead of the skull, what does that do for your target numbers? 18-2(TA/Face)-2(range)-2(ROF)+4(AoA:Determined) = 16, which is 95%, right? IDHMBWM, so I might have the AoA and the probabilities wrong. |
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08-08-2011, 07:19 PM | #24 | |
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Re: Need help with CAG/Delta/SOFD-D Operator
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08-08-2011, 09:08 PM | #25 |
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Seoul, Korea
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Re: Need help with CAG/Delta/SOFD-D Operator
But even without the sling, if you redo the math for AoA(Determined) and targeting the Face instead of the skull, what does that do for your target numbers? 18-2(TA/Face)-2(range)-2(ROF)+1(AoA:Determined) = 13, which is 83%. Add a +1 for this being an easier environment (at least a +1) and you're at a 14, or a 90%.
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08-08-2011, 10:10 PM | #26 |
Join Date: Mar 2010
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Re: Need help with CAG/Delta/SOFD-D Operator
FWIW, I've read Haney's book as well as a handful of others written by people "verified" as having been in tier 1 units, and the various descriptions of CQB training seem relatively consistent with what the OP said. I cannot recall any mentions of specific times or the use of slings, but these books only ever reveal a certain level of information, so its really anyone's guess.
I would advise against Weapon Bond for most of these guys - while they most certainly seem to have favorites, they are constantly cross-training on a variety of weapons, to the extent that Weapon Bond seems unreasonable to assume as a matter of course. Some will have it, most won't. That having been said, I think 18 is probably a reasonable minimum skill with primary arms for this group. From what I have seen, most of these units carry people at three distinct skill levels - "minimum acceptable", "average", and "expert". That is to say, they have minimum standards that they will not for safety reasons go below, but they will usually only accept that minimum from an individual in a couple of areas, and only if they are correspondingly superior in other areas. Perhaps 18 should be the minimum but 19 the norm, and 20+ reserved for the top snipers and a handful of other aces in the unit. Exact details don't really matter THAT much for the purposes of the game, but it would be worthwhile to try to put whatever scores you decide on within the context of the opposition and other forces. If 18+ is Tier 1, what skill levels do you have for Tier 2 units like Special Forces and SEALs, and units "below" those? It is probably not reasonable to place an expectation of skill 18 for DEVGRU if SEAL operators are only expected to have skill 14. |
08-08-2011, 11:00 PM | #27 |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: Need help with CAG/Delta/SOFD-D Operator
For what it's worth, when I've tried to model the training of SAS CRW, Delta and Navy SEALS DEVGRU, skill levels of 18 and several relevant techniques maximised have been called for in order to match reported feats.
I don't have a problem with this. That's just how high their Guns skill needs to be while they are at peak operational pitch. Rotate them to other duties and they might dip back down to skill 15-17 within a couple of years, if they don't get the constant realistic training. But on the face of it, if anyone rates massive Guns skill, it's going to be the teams of exceptional individuals who daily spend a very considerable amount of resources to train in situations as close to operational reality as possible.
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Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela! |
08-09-2011, 04:24 AM | #28 |
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Re: Need help with CAG/Delta/SOFD-D Operator
Thanks for the input, everyone. With some of the rules adjustments based on what I've read, it seems like Guns 18 or 19 is not only appropriate for a Delta Assaulter, but indeed capable of performing those feats that I've read about.
I'll try to respond to everyone's individual posts this afternoon, but I appreciate the quality of feedback I've gotten so far. These are, by far, the best RPG forums that I've frequented. |
08-09-2011, 11:36 AM | #29 | |
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Re: Need help with CAG/Delta/SOFD-D Operator
It's still a training environment, with no one shooting back. It's also something that they've done over and over. That's the definition of training, yes, but also it's likely you still get positive TDMs. Maybe the moving around of targets and hostages helps (and if time pressure and elevated heart rate are included) you suppress them, but eventually this stuff become old hat. The best thing about training today is force on force training with simunitions and firearms simulator. Which, I am sure, these guys use in spades. This too can be gamed. Of course, these guys will have Battle Drill, and get some small benefit from that, too.
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1. Move and Attack/CQB/Ranged Rapid Strike (Quick-Shot)/(TA/Vitals & Head) 2. Move and Attack/CQB/Ranged Rapid Strike (Quick-Shot)/(TA/Vitals & Head) 3. Move and 1. STEP/AIM 2. AOA (Determined): Vitals 3. AOA (Determined): Head 4. STEP/AIM 5. AOA (Determined): Vitals 6. AOA (Determined): Head Or whatever. Big difference, obviously. |
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08-09-2011, 03:17 PM | #30 |
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Re: Need help with CAG/Delta/SOFD-D Operator
Read somewhere that SEALs ammo budget for training is 30-50 times that of normal units. They do a lot of practice and the it is needed to keep the skills at the level they have them.
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