Barrett M82A1 - Fine weapon or normal?

[hal]

Hello Folks,
After responding to another thread regarding GURPS TACTICAL SHOOTING, I started to wonder about stats of real world guns used in modern times as compared/contrasted against GURPS HIGH TECH.

Then I started looking at riles with an eye towards wondering just what their normal "Accuracy" value is supposed to be, versus one whose accuracy was improved to Fine (Accurate) or Very Fine (Accurate).

So, if I started with a Barrett M82A1, its accuracy would start at 6. If I made it a Fine (Accurate) it would go up to 7, and if Very Fine (Accurate) it would go up to 8?

Looking at a real life situation, using a TAC-50 sniper rifle, the sniper engaged his target out to 3872 yards. Per GURPS, this would result in a -20 range penalty. In order to secure a hit to that range (which for a Barrett would exceed half damage range), our sniper would have had to have a total of 30 on his skill to engage a target like that to account for a -20 range penalty.

So, hypothetically speaking, a shooter as depicted on page 27 of GURPS TACTICAL SHOOTING, with a total modifier of +21, would have a modified skill of 36, with a -20 range penalty, for a roll of a 16 or less to hit. Using Harsh Realism rules, the max skill for such a rifle would be 22 + (2*(6+1)) or 36.

One has to wonder why the range penalties are harsher at this point? Per GURPS rules, one would expect that 90% of all shots taken under those circumstances would hit, yet 2.2 miles is a record holding shot. *sigh*

In any event, my original question still remains...

Would a Very Fine (Accurate) Barrett M82A1 have an accuracy of 8?

Now imagine this sniper utilizing a Very Fine (Accurate) .50 caliber rifle where the accuracy is 8. Harsh realism would result in the formula changing from 22+(2*(6+1)) to something more like 22 + (2*(8+1)) or base skill 40. Wowsers!

That would be one NASTY weapon system...

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by hal

One has to wonder why the range penalties are harsher at this point? Per GURPS rules, one would expect that 90% of all shots taken under those circumstances would hit, yet 2.2 miles is a record holding shot. *sigh*

Isn't there an optional rule somewhere to apply an extra, somewhat random, penalty at very long ranges to account for unpredictable target motion during the flight time?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by hal

One has to wonder why the range penalties are harsher at this point? Per GURPS rules, one would expect that 90% of all shots taken under those circumstances would hit, yet 2.2 miles is a record holding shot. *sigh*

You're looking at the harsh realism box already. Have a look at the very first offering in it. That's an average -15 penalty there.

[hal]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

You're looking at the harsh realism box already. Have a look at the very first offering in it. That's an average -15 penalty there.

Oddly enough, I HAD remembered the rule for time in flight, but forgot the 1d6-5 roll. Thanks for prodding that absentminded bit of grey matter there.

*rueful grin*

Gonna have to make a special note of that for my Fantasy Grounds Cyberpunk campaign for any long distance shots. Unfortunately, in an urban environment, most shots are within 50 yards EASY, with many being within 7 yards in my campaigns.

As the song goes...

Forty shots rang out
Forty people fell
But Patty and the Bandit
Missed each other
But shot the town to hell.

Possibly not worth looking up on Youtube, or maybe worth it depending on your sense of humor.

[hal]

Originally Posted by RyanW

Isn't there an optional rule somewhere to apply an extra, somewhat random, penalty at very long ranges to account for unpredictable target motion during the flight time?

Yup, the time in flight rules. :)

[The Colonel]

Originally Posted by hal

Gonna have to make a special note of that for my Fantasy Grounds Cyberpunk campaign for any long distance shots. Unfortunately, in an urban environment, most shots are within 50 yards EASY, with many being within 7 yards in my campaigns.

As the song goes...

Forty shots rang out
Forty people fell
But Patty and the Bandit
Missed each other
But shot the town to hell.

Possibly not worth looking up on Youtube, or maybe worth it depending on your sense of humor.

Yep ... most shots, even at CQB ranges still miss (what they are aimed at).

[hal]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

Yep ... most shots, even at CQB ranges still miss (what they are aimed at).

That's one of the reasons I pay close attention to those who use missile weapons. Once launched, the missile must end up somewhere. ;)

As it is? The one player in our group would often hang back with a crossbow or a bow, or a pistol, or a laser weapon, and the group would not permit him to hang back any more. Between them all, I think that each of them has hat at least 3 to 4 characters who have heard "oops!" when the shot missed its intended target and nailed them instead.

In any event, having a Fine (Accurate) rifle or a Very Fine (Accurate Rifle using GURPS TACTICAL SHOOTING rules is going to make life a wee bit difficult.

I'm starting to wonder however...

The rule of thumb for "time in flight" for bullets - was that based upon the average muzzle velocity of rifle bullets? If for example, you have the actual muzzle velocity of a given weapon, that it might be better to use the actual real data instead of the rule of thumb?

Just musing...

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by hal

The rule of thumb for "time in flight" for bullets - was that based upon the average muzzle velocity of rifle bullets? If for example, you have the actual muzzle velocity of a given weapon, that it might be better to use the actual real data instead of the rule of thumb?

Just musing...

It was *based on* velocities, but it's obviously got lower numbers in it than typical stuff. If you can get actual velocities for second 1-2, then 2-3, then 3-4 etc to figure out time of flight, I mean, you *could*, but I'd have to ask why you'd do that to yourself when the only purpose there is to figure out how many incredibly low resolution 1d-X dice you throw at the table?

[hal]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

It was *based on* velocities, but it's obviously got lower numbers in it than typical stuff. If you can get actual velocities for second 1-2, then 2-3, then 3-4 etc to figure out time of flight, I mean, you *could*, but I'd have to ask why you'd do that to yourself when the only purpose there is to figure out how many incredibly low resolution 1d-X dice you throw at the table?

To that extent, you'd be correct. Is it worth it to try and determine whether or not a high velocity low mass bullet takes less time to reach its target than a lower velocity, higher mass bullet?

In the article involving the 2.2 mile shot, not only did one have to worry about the wind between the shooter and the target, but also the rotation of the earth in the time it took for the round to find its target. Something that takes 2 seconds to reach its target isn't going to be all too much more than something taking 2.1 seconds - so some level of granularity is going to have to be dealt with.

What I find interesting in all of this, is that if you take a given manufacturer's bullets for a given gun - you will generally get consistent results right? But if the different manufacturers produce different results because of the difference between muzzle velocity and bullet mass etc - then one wouldn't expect a uniform result with a gun. That GURPS doesn't bother with the difference between manufacturer's bullets is all too understandable - playability versus realism.

So - the question asked wasn't intended to be a jab at any one, it was a simple question as to whether or not it was created as a general rule of thumb for playability sake, and whether or not knowing the actual velocity (which requires having access to the reference books in question!) would matter.

I guess in a way, it is like trying to determine whether or not the Marine version of the Winchester Model 700 rilfe is the same beast, or a Fine (Accurate) version of the Model 700? If it is the latter, then it should be noted that it can't be fine tuned as a "fine" weapon, but requires the work that goes into Very Fine instead. I guess that is why I even questioned whether or not the Barrett M82A1 counts as a "Fine (Accurate)" weapon to begin with, or if it is a stock weapon that can be improved per the rules of GURPS (amongst other questions).

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

It was *based on* velocities, but it's obviously got lower numbers in it than typical stuff. If you can get actual velocities for second 1-2, then 2-3, then 3-4 etc to figure out time of flight, I mean, you *could*, but I'd have to ask why you'd do that to yourself when the only purpose there is to figure out how many incredibly low resolution 1d-X dice you throw at the table?

Well, I would want to factor in actual travel speeds for hyper-velocity weapons (lightspeed or just hypersonic) and slower-than-pistol weapons.

Picking out the small variations in speed between conventional rifles is probably more trouble than it's worth, though.