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Old 03-05-2021, 06:11 PM   #11
Plane
 
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Default Re: [DF] Spellcasting in Heavy Gear

As far as "why even HOLD much less POINT the Wand of Fireball" goes (since apparently you can shoot fireballs by wearing an enchanted object which casts spells around your neck) I'd go with how that would influence the Innate Attack skill used to actually target with it:

You could perhaps in theory wield a wand of Fireball by clutching it your elbow and use shoulder/torso movements to clumsily orient it at a target... guessing that would be beyond the -6 to DX for Ham-Fisted 2 [-10] though. Even the guy with the worst hand coordination still probably has better "aiming with object in hand" coordination than "aiming with object in elbow" coordination.

Ham-Fisted fine motor skills like aiming guns (and probably casting spells) are more complex than grappling so it likely 't merely be the -4 for "crook of one arm" used on MA116's box. You might use that just to grab a gun/wand in the first place, but no to actually USE it.

MA116's -4 assumes a 2H skill, so -4 for crook is instead of the -2 for 1H. So one might view that as "an extra -2 to operating with one hand" or "double the penalty for operating with one hand".

The problem with the latter is there's no penalty for stuff that's 1H to begin with (like a mage tossing a fireball) so I'm thinking -2, but for fine work we should assume a "Ham-Fisted 2" baseline to apply that to, so we don't have weird situations like "more agile with elbows than hands".

Ham-Fisted also applies atop "Off-Hand" penalties, where -6 and -4 total -10, so fine work aiming guns/wands with your elbow could maybe be -12 ?

Grappling tends to use half the penalties (at least for hit locations) as fine-tuned striking, so maybe that "extra -2" should be an "extra -4" for fine work? In which case you get -14.

You're -2 to DX for grappling with legs, so doubling that to an extra -4 to DX for "aiming the Wand of Fireball held in my bent knee at the dragon" (total -18) also sounds about right, to hazard a guess.

Could probably allow some kind of special niche skills for people who train to aim guns/wands in this weird way like a technique to buy off up to half of either -4 penalty.

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Moreover if they don't use a buckler (in GURPS terminology) the shield is strapped to their arm without occupying the hand. I'm not sure whether this is addressed but it plausibly would allow moderate casting gestures.
B219 initially had it completely off limits: "hold (but not wield) something in your shield hand" for basic Shield, more permissive than the "occupies one hand completely" for Buckler.

Pg 113 of Low-Tech talks about guiges: they're worn on neck (hands-free: but can't be used for a Bash or Rush) when introducing new rules for bucklers (-1 rush dmg) and shields (-1 feint)

LT114 standard "Shield" talks about "held in place with arm straps" but doesn't really go into detail about handles.

To cover "it's strapped to my arm like a Shield but also has a handle like a Buckler" I could see maybe it being best of both worlds to House Rule ignoring both of the new penalties: no -1 to Shield Rush damage like Bucklers suffer (as of LT) and also no -1 to Feint like Shields suffer (as of LT) so long as both requirements are met.

If the straps break, you'd suddenly suffer that -1 Shield Rush damage as you relied on your wrist stability... if you let go and relied purely on the forearm-straps then you'd get the -1 to feint.

- -

Hands vs Hands-free shield use is covered on Low-Tech Companion 2: Weapons pg 19 under "Advanced Guide Use" where if a shield is strapped to your neck you're -3 to block relying on neck strap alone (doesn't seem to affect DB) and you ignore the -3 if you opt to use your hand to grab the shield to assist the neck strap in controlling it.

Guige shielding is "Ungainly" preventing using your arms on the side it's held though. Nothing about legs though, so someone like Batman (perhaps using Guige-esque Cloak rules since his thick heavy cape is strapped to his neck like a guige) can still throw kicks even though it prevents him punching in that direction.

- -

Pg 19 of LTC2 also talks about "Shield-Hand Weapons". Only small DB 1 "shield or buckler" is able to actually "ready" weapons held in the hand which is holding a shield simultaneously: and you're -2 to both skills.

This equivalent treatment makes me think that the hand is occupied with non-bucklers too.

For DB2+ skills you can still hold things in the shield hand, but not "ready" them. You can carry around a pair of javelins in the hand clutching the handle of your DB3 tower shield but not actually stab with them unless some kind of "Akimbo" perk were to allow it (seems reasonable)

There's no -2 to shield skill if you're merely holding unready weapons, even though that could probably get awkward after a while: your hand would be fuller and more open after all.

I'm guessing for the DB2+ that's something like the shield wraps around so you can't make stabs and so on with a knife. I'm not sure if it would cause problems clutching a wand so long as the wand didn't need a direct line of attack to a target (like with Wand of Fireball) such as if it were merely a "Regular Spell" cast by a wand. You're basically just using a bracelet that can't hold on so you need to hold it.

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Originally Posted by Spartan506 View Post
DFRPG is more explicit: "You may pick any solid, unliving object (no pets!) you own
If we were going the "Objects as Characters" route of "can the wizard cast Manastone on ME?" then I'm wondering how we'd do this trait-wise... to hazard a guess
1) must have one of 3 forms of Injury Tolerance: Unliving, Homogenous (stick) or non-Swarm Diffuse (net)

2) must have Immunity to Metabolic Hazards

3) must have No Legs (Portable) or No Legs (Sessile)

4) must have whatever protects you from Toxic Attack... ITMH?

5) must have whatever protects you from Fatigue Attack... ITMH? or "No Fatigue" ?
Kind of wondering if instead of things being 0pt feature immune to 2 damage types we should just give things not meant to be damaged by them some kind of Cosmic Injury Tolerance (Damage Reduction) to Toxic/Fatigue damage worked into a metatrait.

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you can specify a suit of armor, pair of boots, or other matching set made by the same craftsman – but if so, you must carry it all to use your item, and will be without its FP if anything goes missing. You’re free to pick a single piece (right gauntlet, one earring, etc.) if this worries you."
Sounds like a bit of a nightmare, I think "you have two gauntlets each storing 1 FP" is easier than "you have 2 FP only accessible when both gauntlets are present".

The benefit of "all my eggs aren't in one basket" for allowing 2 power items in DF would be offset by using the standard "I can only use one powerstone/manastone at a time" policy.
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Old 03-05-2021, 06:16 PM   #12
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Default Re: [DF] Spellcasting in Heavy Gear

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Originally Posted by Kalzazz View Post
I'd always assumed that wands were great for gesturing with, after all Harry Potter wizards do so. Flick and swish
I've always assumed that a wand or staff, as long as it's enchanted with the Staff spell, can be used to gesture with. How else do you channel spells through a staff for that sweet range extension, after all?
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Old 03-05-2021, 06:23 PM   #13
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Default Re: [DF] Spellcasting in Heavy Gear

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
B219 initially had it completely off limits: "hold (but not wield) something in your shield hand" for basic Shield, more permissive than the "occupies one hand completely" for Buckler.
Had what completely off limits? The only referent that seems to make sense for "it" is casting gestures, but your quotes say nothing about that.
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Old 03-05-2021, 06:56 PM   #14
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Default Re: [DF] Spellcasting in Heavy Gear

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Had what completely off limits? The only referent that seems to make sense for "it" is casting gestures, but your quotes say nothing about that.
sorry I meant wielding items, I figure the complexity of wielding a weapon is probably close to the complexity of magic gestures
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Old 03-05-2021, 10:19 PM   #15
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Default Re: [DF] Spellcasting in Heavy Gear

What is the system of your choice?

The power items’ nature and potential will depend on the magic system of your choice.

For example, if you pick RPM (assuming it is allowed), it could be about power items and gestures, or maybe either about the item or the gestures, or even neither of these and so on.

Sometimes power items are tools that simply grant you with an energy reserve to cast more magic (e.g. a ring or necklace). In other occasions, a power item is a blessed charm that helps you preparing or launching a spell with a certain bonus. RPM’s Grimoires are power items in the sense they help you improve your spell casting prowess, but the magic does not come out from them when you activate the spell.

The shield is a good choice when it comes to having a defense bonus. Alternatively, you could train your mage at fighting with the staff. Now you have a weapon with an enhanced parry that also works as your power item. For the matter of gestures in magic, you could the take akimbo and the unusual training perks (the latter to avoid taking weapon master, for akimbo).
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Old 03-06-2021, 09:53 AM   #16
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Default Re: [DF] Spellcasting in Heavy Gear

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What is the system of your choice?

The power items’ nature and potential will depend on the magic system of your choice.
Dungeon Fantasy, Standard magic system, 125 points. I believe you are aware of the relevant game...
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Old 03-06-2021, 06:52 PM   #17
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Dungeon Fantasy (...)
That being the case, you could have your character learn the perks I suggested before, plus a costly power item acquired as a signature gear (that is more cost effective than buying an energy reserve).

So, take the 5 the five points of quirks and cash them for $ 500 each, reduce your character’s value from 125 to 120 and get the costly staff. A $ 2,500 will yield 12 FP, once you designate it as your power item. You may inject more $ from your starting $ budget to buy an even better power item.

What matters in the FP sense, is the item's worth. However, I wouldn’t buy common diamonds for my power item. Rhetorically speaking, if it was a staff you could make it fine or meteoric, which yields benefits beyond the cost-effective-FP.

Finally, if you also buy the weapon bond perk, you will have a +1 to skill whenever your staff is involved; in other words, that might include melee combat AND spells fueled by your power item. Armor sounds good, but it’s heavy (it slows you down) and its job is getting broken instead of you… also you can’t buy a weapon bond for armor.
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Old 03-07-2021, 03:29 PM   #18
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Default Re: [DF] Spellcasting in Heavy Gear

i always figured weapon bond was to hit with weapons, getting that bonus to spells cast through them would be pretty decent but which page mentions that?

Also wondering with power items: if you start out with some 50 dollar staff and pay 1 dollar to put 1 fp into it, next time you visit down if you want to pump it full of 2 fp, can you just buy some gems and attach them to the staff to make it worth more money so it's storage capacity automatically upgrades?

Manastone sometimes glitches and destroys items you're charging so I'm guessing in the world of Dungeon Fantasy there's a lot of Stable Casting enhancements on Magery combined with Luck floating around to prevent that since recharge-in-town never seems to encounter that risk.
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Old 03-07-2021, 05:15 PM   #19
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Default Re: [DF] Spellcasting in Heavy Gear

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Does the power Item need to be held in order to be used? or is it enough to be touching it, or wearing it (say, as a ring or necklace)?
Dungeon Fantasy 18: Power Items is very clear on this. To paraphrase: You must either carry or touch the item, but it needn't be in contact with bare skin or even wielded. It can be worn, slung, packed away, etc., provided that the owner is carrying the means of carrying it. In game terms, if you're responsible for the encumbrance (or would be, if the item had weight), that's good enough.

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Can you use a suit of armor as a power item? armor is one of the more expensive things a delver might want to purchase, and it doesn't take up any hands.
Not that it matters whether it takes up hands, but yes, you can use armor. In fact, armor is explicitly called out as a good choice, because it's durable, usually of fairly high value (which sets capacity), and carried almost all the time. Also, it's entirely flavorful: a wizard's robes, a warrior-cleric's shining breastplate, a shaman's heavy pelts . . . it's all armor in a sense. "Wizards can't wear armor" is just game-balance silliness from another game (which then proceeds to encourage wizards to wear bracers, cloaks, and robes that enhance protection and that in GURPS would likely count as DR 1-2 cloth everywhere and DR 4+ metal on the arms).

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Originally Posted by ericthered View Post

Can you "Gesture" with a weapon? What if that weapon is a power item? Using it as a sort of "wand" would seem to bypass a lot of these issues, but I'm not sure if its keeping to the rules or not.
Power item or not doesn't matter. If you have skill 9 or less, you're hosed – both hands have to be free. If you have skill 10-14, you must speak and gesture, but sure, you can gesture with your weapon, or the fingers of the hand holding the weapon, and that's good enough; you don't need empty hands. At skill 15-19, gestures are largely irrelevant because "a word" will do; if you're silenced or whatever, and must gesture, see above. At skill 20+, it truly doesn't matter.

As a bonus answer: If your weapon counts as a Staff, you can use it not only to gesture, but also to reduce distance to your subject. With Regular spells, this is like a free (in terms of points) +1 or +2 to skill. That's the single biggest reason to carry such an item. And no, it doesn't matter if your Staff item is your power item.
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Old 03-07-2021, 07:00 PM   #20
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Default Re: [DF] Spellcasting in Heavy Gear

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Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Dungeon Fantasy 18: Power Items is very clear on this. To paraphrase: You must either carry or touch the item, but it needn't be in contact with bare skin or even wielded. It can be worn, slung, packed away, etc., provided that the owner is carrying the means of carrying it. In game terms, if you're responsible for the encumbrance (or would be, if the item had weight), that's good enough.
What that tells me is that a sufficiently-strong half-ogre mage could have access to all of the magic items in a pack mule's packs, and I think that image is worth noting.
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