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Old 12-01-2023, 03:51 AM   #1
whswhs
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Default attacking from the shadows

Assume we're looking at a "night stalker" type character, one whose tactics emphasize attacking in shadows, like Batman or Daredevil.

It seems that routinely, their foe will have a darkness penalty to attack them, from -4 (full moon) to -8 (starlight on a cloudy night). They will also have a darkness penalty, but if they have Night Vision, or Dark Vision (perhaps with Hyperspectral), or Blind Fighting, they can reduce or avoid this.

Can they be "unseen" with a Quick Contest of Stealth vs. Vision, taking advantage of darkness and shadows for concealment? If so, is the foe's vision penalized for darkness, as usual? Or do they forfeit the ability to use stealth when they attack?

What if they wear dark (not solid black!) clothing? Can that be treated as +1 to Stealth if there are shadows to hide in, at least while they're sneaking up? Can it make them any harder to see in actual combat, and does that make them any harder to hit?

I can see several different ways to take the defender's situation: Perhaps they can't see the attacker (if the attacker wins Stealth vs. Vision) but can attack at -6. Perhaps they know the attacker's location for sure (they're where the blows are coming from!) and can attack at -4, dodge at -4, and maybe even parry or block at -4. Perhaps they can attack at a darkness penalty but defend with no penalty.

I'm not sure how to parse the rules for this. How do you all handle it?
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Old 12-01-2023, 05:16 AM   #2
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Default Re: attacking from the shadows

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
I'm not sure how to parse the rules for this. How do you all handle it?
First Question: Does the target have Combat Reflexes? If the answer is no it will be a lot harder to make that IQ roll to 'snap out' of surprise and into combat.

Until that roll is made the target will be making defense rolls only. I am not sure I would penalize a flat -4; I might treat it similar to a feint roll, contest of Stealth vs Vision with any MoS being the penalty on active defense.

In that situation a skilled 'creeper' could very well destroy someone before they even know they are in a fight, which strikes me as realistic.
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Old 12-01-2023, 05:48 AM   #3
whswhs
 
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Default Re: attacking from the shadows

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Originally Posted by Witchking View Post
First Question: Does the target have Combat Reflexes? If the answer is no it will be a lot harder to make that IQ roll to 'snap out' of surprise and into combat.

Until that roll is made the target will be making defense rolls only. I am not sure I would penalize a flat -4; I might treat it similar to a feint roll, contest of Stealth vs Vision with any MoS being the penalty on active defense.

In that situation a skilled 'creeper' could very well destroy someone before they even know they are in a fight, which strikes me as realistic.
Well, that's a good point. I suppose an average man would not have Combat Reflexes, but a street tough with some experience of fighting likely would have them.
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Old 12-01-2023, 06:26 AM   #4
Varyon
 
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Default Re: attacking from the shadows

The way a lot of these characters work is that they tend to strike then fade back into concealment. The Delvers to Grow supplement for the DFRPG has a mechanic to allow for this, in the form of its Backstab rules (which should really be called Vanish or similar, but I digress). Those originate in GURPS DF, where a stealthy character can opt to Vanish at the start of combat (explained as "I was already sneaking around") with a successful Stealth roll (at +0 if ambushing the target, -5 for normal combat, or -10 if being ambushed); this means they can opt to start the combat in concealment and behind the nearest foe (or any foe of their choice on a Critical Success). DtG takes this a step further with Vanishing Act, which gives a +5 to the initial roll and also allows you to do it again (and again, and again) during combat, at net -5 (same as doing it during an ambush), so long as you break the foes' lines of sight with concealment. In that case, rather than teleporting behind the nearest foe, you basically just disappear from the field of combat. The next round, you can reappear anywhere you could have reached with 1 second of movement; if you opt not to reappear, then the next round you can reappear anywhere you could have reached with 2 seconds of movement; and so forth. For Batman attacking a group of thugs illuminated by streetlights, he could momentarily step into the light, take down a thug, then jump out of the light; the resulting penalty to see him (I believe your Powers: Enhanced Senses has targets outside of an illuminated area be quite difficult to see) could readily count as breaking the rest of the thugs' lines of sight, allowing him to Vanish again - and the player doesn't have to anticipate how the thugs arrange themselves in defense, the nebulous nature of movement while Vanished means, so long as enough time has elapsed to be able to reach anywhere the thugs are at, the player can immediately take advantage of one thug's momentary isolation to take him out and then fade back into the shadows to do it all over again.

But for actually standing and fighting, I think the RAW would be that the only penalties would be for ambient conditions (-5 to hit when there are -5 worth of darkness penalties in play, for example). The idea of being able to roll Stealth to more readily take advantage of said conditions is an interesting one. Off the top of my head, I'd say Stealth-5 to do this as a free action (using an actual Maneuver - probably Ready - for it makes it Stealth+0, and appropriate camouflage for the situation could probably give a bonus, like your suggested +1 for wearing a dark outfit), with a success giving a further penalty equal to MoS (treat MoS 0 as MoS 1), and this additional penalty cannot exceed the current penalty (so in -2 Darkness, you inflict a further -1 with MoS 0 or 1, a further -2 with MoS 2+, for net -3 and -4, respectively). Alternatively (or additionally), you could make the same roll to have an attack take advantage of the concealment; on a success, you can inflict a penalty to defense equal to the lowest of: the vision penalty, the defense penalty you are inflicting with a Deceptive Attack, and your MoS on the Stealth roll, still treating MoS 0 as MoS 1 (so in -2 Darkness, with any success you can inflict a further -1 to defense so long as you are inflicting a -1 or worse with Deceptive Attack; with MoS 2+, you can boost this to -2, so long as you are inflicting a -2 or worse with Deceptive Attack). I would be inclined to have characters with DtG's Vanishing Act get a +5 to the above Stealth rolls.
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Old 12-01-2023, 07:04 AM   #5
whswhs
 
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Default Re: attacking from the shadows

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
The way a lot of these characters work is that they tend to strike then fade back into concealment. The Delvers to Grow supplement for the DFRPG has a mechanic to allow for this, in the form of its Backstab rules (which should really be called Vanish or similar, but I digress). Those originate in GURPS DF, where a stealthy character can opt to Vanish at the start of combat (explained as "I was already sneaking around") with a successful Stealth roll (at +0 if ambushing the target, -5 for normal combat, or -10 if being ambushed); this means they can opt to start the combat in concealment and behind the nearest foe (or any foe of their choice on a Critical Success). DtG takes this a step further with Vanishing Act, which gives a +5 to the initial roll and also allows you to do it again (and again, and again) during combat, at net -5 (same as doing it during an ambush), so long as you break the foes' lines of sight with concealment. In that case, rather than teleporting behind the nearest foe, you basically just disappear from the field of combat. The next round, you can reappear anywhere you could have reached with 1 second of movement; if you opt not to reappear, then the next round you can reappear anywhere you could have reached with 2 seconds of movement; and so forth. For Batman attacking a group of thugs illuminated by streetlights, he could momentarily step into the light, take down a thug, then jump out of the light; the resulting penalty to see him (I believe your Powers: Enhanced Senses has targets outside of an illuminated area be quite difficult to see) could readily count as breaking the rest of the thugs' lines of sight, allowing him to Vanish again - and the player doesn't have to anticipate how the thugs arrange themselves in defense, the nebulous nature of movement while Vanished means, so long as enough time has elapsed to be able to reach anywhere the thugs are at, the player can immediately take advantage of one thug's momentary isolation to take him out and then fade back into the shadows to do it all over again.
That sounds rather like the effect I was aiming at, and my sample character, with Stealth-16 and a dark suit that provides camouflage in shadowy/dark areas, could probably fade from sight on a 12 or less.

Quote:
But for actually standing and fighting, I think the RAW would be that the only penalties would be for ambient conditions (-5 to hit when there are -5 worth of darkness penalties in play, for example). The idea of being able to roll Stealth to more readily take advantage of said conditions is an interesting one. Off the top of my head, I'd say Stealth-5 to do this as a free action (using an actual Maneuver - probably Ready - for it makes it Stealth+0, and appropriate camouflage for the situation could probably give a bonus, like your suggested +1 for wearing a dark outfit), with a success giving a further penalty equal to MoS (treat MoS 0 as MoS 1), and this additional penalty cannot exceed the current penalty (so in -2 Darkness, you inflict a further -1 with MoS 0 or 1, a further -2 with MoS 2+, for net -3 and -4, respectively). Alternatively (or additionally), you could make the same roll to have an attack take advantage of the concealment; on a success, you can inflict a penalty to defense equal to the lowest of: the vision penalty, the defense penalty you are inflicting with a Deceptive Attack, and your MoS on the Stealth roll, still treating MoS 0 as MoS 1 (so in -2 Darkness, with any success you can inflict a further -1 to defense so long as you are inflicting a -1 or worse with Deceptive Attack; with MoS 2+, you can boost this to -2, so long as you are inflicting a -2 or worse with Deceptive Attack). I would be inclined to have characters with DtG's Vanishing Act get a +5 to the above Stealth rolls.
All of that sounds interesting and helpful, though complex enough that I need to think through it. I was also thinking of giving the character a few points of Night Vision, so that where his foes were attacking at -4 to -8, he would be attacking at -1 to -5, if they were actually in a dark alley or something.

There seem to be two cases here: the hero is emerging from shadows to attack criminals who are in the light, and then fading back into the shadows; or both the hero and the criminals are in a darkened area, but the hero is much better at taking advantage of the darkness, through a combination of Stealth, camouflage, and Night Vision or Blind Fighting. Your proposal seems to rely mainly on the former case; any thoughts about the latter?
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Old 12-01-2023, 08:29 AM   #6
Varyon
 
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Default Re: attacking from the shadows

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
That sounds rather like the effect I was aiming at, and my sample character, with Stealth-16 and a dark suit that provides camouflage in shadowy/dark areas, could probably fade from sight on a 12 or less.
One objection I have to the Backstab/Vanish rules is that, as far as I can tell, they make it the same difficulty to sneak up on someone with Per 7 as one with Per 20. I suggested a way to "fix" this in this thread, but it does add complication (although I think the simplified form on post #2 of that thread would be easy enough at the table).

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
All of that sounds interesting and helpful, though complex enough that I need to think through it. I was also thinking of giving the character a few points of Night Vision, so that where his foes were attacking at -4 to -8, he would be attacking at -1 to -5, if they were actually in a dark alley or something.
There's probably some way to simplify it; I often find my first drafts of houserules are stupidly-complex but then discover (or am shown) a method that maintains most of the benefits with markedly reduced complexity. I'll give this one some thought. And, yeah, Night Vision and similar would be extremely useful, particularly paired with Protected Vision (either as an innate trait or complements of gadgets or the like).

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
There seem to be two cases here: the hero is emerging from shadows to attack criminals who are in the light, and then fading back into the shadows; or both the hero and the criminals are in a darkened area, but the hero is much better at taking advantage of the darkness, through a combination of Stealth, camouflage, and Night Vision or Blind Fighting. Your proposal seems to rely mainly on the former case; any thoughts about the latter?
Backstab/Vanish, with Vanishing Act from DtG, works well for the first case, while my suggestion of being able to use Stealth to increase the penalty was geared more toward the second - both characters are (absent traits like Night Vision) at -2 to hit for Darkness, but you can make your foe be at -4 instead (net +2 for you) and/or even make that -2 penalty apply to your foe's defenses as well if you can make good use of the darkness. They'd also be usable in the first case... in fact, I could see cause to rule that being able to use Vanishing Act without actually putting something between yourself and your foe (so actually fading into the shadows instead of ducking behind a crate) might call for you to momentarily boost the penalty for Darkness to -10. And, to be clear (heh), I'm not restricting my line of thought to darkness here - the same methods should work when vision is obscured by smoke, fog, foliage (for which I hear there are rules in the new Tactical Shooting: Extreme Conditions), etc. Well, arguably the actual methods used by the characters may be a bit different (Familiarity could come into play), but you'd resolve them the same way.
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Old 12-01-2023, 11:13 AM   #7
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Default Re: attacking from the shadows

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
I was also thinking of giving the character a few points of Night Vision, so that where his foes were attacking at -4 to -8, he would be attacking at -1 to -5, if they were actually in a dark alley or something.
Any character who does this wants as much Night Vision as they can get.

They also need to decide what their default attack objective is: killing, knockout, intimidation, or something else? Do they need to operate silently, or is making some noise acceptable? Can they concentrate on lone targets, or do they have to cope with groups?
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Old 12-01-2023, 11:25 AM   #8
whswhs
 
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Default Re: attacking from the shadows

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
Any character who does this wants as much Night Vision as they can get.

They also need to decide what their default attack objective is: killing, knockout, intimidation, or something else? Do they need to operate silently, or is making some noise acceptable? Can they concentrate on lone targets, or do they have to cope with groups?
Well, my background for the character has him serving as an Army unit's sentry removal expert during WWII. Now the war's over and he's been discharged in New Jersey, where he's trying to do something about criminals who victimize ordinary people—but he doesn't want to kill them, which would make him too interesting to the police. So let's say unconsciousness or other incapacitation, and secondarily building up a scary reputation.
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Old 12-01-2023, 11:40 AM   #9
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Default Re: attacking from the shadows

Another point to be careful with is the notion that "dark clothing" helps with Stealth. It doesn't, at least not all the time in real life. What you really need is clothing that would normally help you blend into the background in daylight, in short camouflage clothing. Most camouflage clothing does tend toward dark colours: browns and greens for woodlands, greys for urban, etc. However black tends to be more visible than browns or greys and nearly negates Stealth when the background is snow-covered. There's a reason beyond expense that militaries don't make reversible black/pattern camouflage coverings.

As long as you keep that in mind for "dark colors", a +1 or even +2 bonus to effective skill is warranted.
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Old 12-01-2023, 11:57 AM   #10
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Default Re: attacking from the shadows

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Another point to be careful with is the notion that "dark clothing" helps with Stealth. It doesn't, at least not all the time in real life. What you really need is clothing that would normally help you blend into the background in daylight, in short camouflage clothing. Most camouflage clothing does tend toward dark colours: browns and greens for woodlands, greys for urban, etc. However black tends to be more visible than browns or greys and nearly negates Stealth when the background is snow-covered. There's a reason beyond expense that militaries don't make reversible black/pattern camouflage coverings.

As long as you keep that in mind for "dark colors", a +1 or even +2 bonus to effective skill is warranted.
This sort of trope really best fits settings with a degree of cinematics in play, where "dark clothing serves as camouflage anywhere it's dark" is largely the rule of the day. Even in more realistic settings, darker colors blend in better in poor lighting conditions, with the only real exceptions being when the background is largely white (clean snow, for example). Of course, it certainly is true that most things dark enough to be considered black often stand out even in dark areas (because in nature things typically don't get quite that dark outside of extreme low light or outright no light, and in those situations you'll probably blend in just fine wearing a clown suit).
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