12-01-2023, 03:51 AM | #1 |
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
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attacking from the shadows
Assume we're looking at a "night stalker" type character, one whose tactics emphasize attacking in shadows, like Batman or Daredevil.
It seems that routinely, their foe will have a darkness penalty to attack them, from -4 (full moon) to -8 (starlight on a cloudy night). They will also have a darkness penalty, but if they have Night Vision, or Dark Vision (perhaps with Hyperspectral), or Blind Fighting, they can reduce or avoid this. Can they be "unseen" with a Quick Contest of Stealth vs. Vision, taking advantage of darkness and shadows for concealment? If so, is the foe's vision penalized for darkness, as usual? Or do they forfeit the ability to use stealth when they attack? What if they wear dark (not solid black!) clothing? Can that be treated as +1 to Stealth if there are shadows to hide in, at least while they're sneaking up? Can it make them any harder to see in actual combat, and does that make them any harder to hit? I can see several different ways to take the defender's situation: Perhaps they can't see the attacker (if the attacker wins Stealth vs. Vision) but can attack at -6. Perhaps they know the attacker's location for sure (they're where the blows are coming from!) and can attack at -4, dodge at -4, and maybe even parry or block at -4. Perhaps they can attack at a darkness penalty but defend with no penalty. I'm not sure how to parse the rules for this. How do you all handle it?
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12-01-2023, 05:16 AM | #2 | |
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: The Athens of America
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Re: attacking from the shadows
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Until that roll is made the target will be making defense rolls only. I am not sure I would penalize a flat -4; I might treat it similar to a feint roll, contest of Stealth vs Vision with any MoS being the penalty on active defense. In that situation a skilled 'creeper' could very well destroy someone before they even know they are in a fight, which strikes me as realistic.
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12-01-2023, 05:48 AM | #3 | |
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
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Re: attacking from the shadows
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Bill Stoddard I don't think we're in Oz any more. |
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12-01-2023, 06:26 AM | #4 |
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: attacking from the shadows
The way a lot of these characters work is that they tend to strike then fade back into concealment. The Delvers to Grow supplement for the DFRPG has a mechanic to allow for this, in the form of its Backstab rules (which should really be called Vanish or similar, but I digress). Those originate in GURPS DF, where a stealthy character can opt to Vanish at the start of combat (explained as "I was already sneaking around") with a successful Stealth roll (at +0 if ambushing the target, -5 for normal combat, or -10 if being ambushed); this means they can opt to start the combat in concealment and behind the nearest foe (or any foe of their choice on a Critical Success). DtG takes this a step further with Vanishing Act, which gives a +5 to the initial roll and also allows you to do it again (and again, and again) during combat, at net -5 (same as doing it during an ambush), so long as you break the foes' lines of sight with concealment. In that case, rather than teleporting behind the nearest foe, you basically just disappear from the field of combat. The next round, you can reappear anywhere you could have reached with 1 second of movement; if you opt not to reappear, then the next round you can reappear anywhere you could have reached with 2 seconds of movement; and so forth. For Batman attacking a group of thugs illuminated by streetlights, he could momentarily step into the light, take down a thug, then jump out of the light; the resulting penalty to see him (I believe your Powers: Enhanced Senses has targets outside of an illuminated area be quite difficult to see) could readily count as breaking the rest of the thugs' lines of sight, allowing him to Vanish again - and the player doesn't have to anticipate how the thugs arrange themselves in defense, the nebulous nature of movement while Vanished means, so long as enough time has elapsed to be able to reach anywhere the thugs are at, the player can immediately take advantage of one thug's momentary isolation to take him out and then fade back into the shadows to do it all over again.
But for actually standing and fighting, I think the RAW would be that the only penalties would be for ambient conditions (-5 to hit when there are -5 worth of darkness penalties in play, for example). The idea of being able to roll Stealth to more readily take advantage of said conditions is an interesting one. Off the top of my head, I'd say Stealth-5 to do this as a free action (using an actual Maneuver - probably Ready - for it makes it Stealth+0, and appropriate camouflage for the situation could probably give a bonus, like your suggested +1 for wearing a dark outfit), with a success giving a further penalty equal to MoS (treat MoS 0 as MoS 1), and this additional penalty cannot exceed the current penalty (so in -2 Darkness, you inflict a further -1 with MoS 0 or 1, a further -2 with MoS 2+, for net -3 and -4, respectively). Alternatively (or additionally), you could make the same roll to have an attack take advantage of the concealment; on a success, you can inflict a penalty to defense equal to the lowest of: the vision penalty, the defense penalty you are inflicting with a Deceptive Attack, and your MoS on the Stealth roll, still treating MoS 0 as MoS 1 (so in -2 Darkness, with any success you can inflict a further -1 to defense so long as you are inflicting a -1 or worse with Deceptive Attack; with MoS 2+, you can boost this to -2, so long as you are inflicting a -2 or worse with Deceptive Attack). I would be inclined to have characters with DtG's Vanishing Act get a +5 to the above Stealth rolls.
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12-01-2023, 07:04 AM | #5 | ||
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
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Re: attacking from the shadows
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There seem to be two cases here: the hero is emerging from shadows to attack criminals who are in the light, and then fading back into the shadows; or both the hero and the criminals are in a darkened area, but the hero is much better at taking advantage of the darkness, through a combination of Stealth, camouflage, and Night Vision or Blind Fighting. Your proposal seems to rely mainly on the former case; any thoughts about the latter?
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12-01-2023, 08:29 AM | #6 | |||
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: attacking from the shadows
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12-01-2023, 11:13 AM | #7 | |
Night Watchman
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, UK
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Re: attacking from the shadows
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They also need to decide what their default attack objective is: killing, knockout, intimidation, or something else? Do they need to operate silently, or is making some noise acceptable? Can they concentrate on lone targets, or do they have to cope with groups?
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12-01-2023, 11:25 AM | #8 | |
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
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Re: attacking from the shadows
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Bill Stoddard I don't think we're in Oz any more. |
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12-01-2023, 11:40 AM | #9 |
Join Date: Sep 2011
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Re: attacking from the shadows
Another point to be careful with is the notion that "dark clothing" helps with Stealth. It doesn't, at least not all the time in real life. What you really need is clothing that would normally help you blend into the background in daylight, in short camouflage clothing. Most camouflage clothing does tend toward dark colours: browns and greens for woodlands, greys for urban, etc. However black tends to be more visible than browns or greys and nearly negates Stealth when the background is snow-covered. There's a reason beyond expense that militaries don't make reversible black/pattern camouflage coverings.
As long as you keep that in mind for "dark colors", a +1 or even +2 bonus to effective skill is warranted. |
12-01-2023, 11:57 AM | #10 | |
Join Date: Jun 2013
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Re: attacking from the shadows
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