The Logic behind Guns Sport

[Roh]

I am just not seeing it. Unless you are supposed to make will checks with a will based guns skill roll when seeing if you keep your cool in a fire fight then I can't really the point of guns sports unless you only practice under very strict. I mean in basic training I was shooting targets that popped up but never actually moved. And some target ranges offer moving targets.

The skills you use in either combat, hunting, or target shooting are the same exact things so long as you are using the same type of weapon/tool. And unless I am wrong and will checks should be made based on the guns skill just because your holding one I don't see how it effects you firing to hit a target. Or why a person who only shoots at a range is any less likely to know how to clean their weapon. Tactics is supposed to covers the mental skill involved aside from hitting your target.

I am putting this post to see if anyone who cares to might help me understand or convince me that there is a valid reason to have two separate skills to perform the same exact actions just because one is more dangerous than the other. When keeping in mind that absolutely nothing about the guns (rifle) skill helps you not get shot, find the best position, or anything else but hit your target in combat. Unless it does. Then maybe I'll learn something here which is always good.

[woodchuck]

Airsoft, paintball, or reenactment would be my guess.

[Lord Azagthoth]

Originally Posted by woodchuck

Airsoft, paintball, or reenactment would be my guess.

Reenactment would be Guns Art (you're not trying to hit something, its just for the show), as well as the Gun Kata from Equilibrium.

[PTTG]

Originally Posted by woodchuck

Airsoft, paintball, or reenactment would be my guess.

That makes some sense, although I understand that some military wargames use something like lasertag. Perhaps the skills being trained in this case are more along the lines of Tactics, though...

[Roh]

With my current thinking people doing Airsoft and painball would be using guns (rifle) or Guns (pistol). Just like gas powered air guns in ultra tech. If they are all you know then there would be serious familiarity penalties using something else for a while. But still. And laser take would use beam. And there would be no familiarity bonus. Because... its a beam.

And if folks making a character were pretty hard core about any three of those sports Id allow them to take some levels in tactics as well. When I look at what I've learned of GURPS so far the only reason I can ever see justifying a ranged weapon sport is if you have only ever practiced within a very narrow possible use of the weapon. Such as strict pistol duels. Maybe archery where you never, ever fired at anything but a stationary target at like 1-3 specific ranges for example.

If you have practices hitting targets at moderately variable ranges Id call it the called for combat skill. Even more so if some moving targets are tossed in. I just can't see any factor that live combat tosses in that shouldn't be covered by tactics or a will check. Point of this post is to see if anyone out there feels like sharing a compelling view for why gun sport or bow sport should be a thing outside of very, very narrow lines of practice.

[Ulzgoroth]

I'll toss out a quote used in GURPS Tactical Shooting:

. . . beyond helping to teach care in the handling of fire-arms, target shooting is of no value whatever in learning the use of the pistol as a weapon of combat.
– William Fairbairn and Eric Sykes, Shooting to Live (1942)

Considering modern practices I suspect that's going a bit far, but nonetheless 'shooting under range conditions' and 'shooting under combat conditions' are significantly different

[Roh]

Ulzgoroth, I would absolutely agree. But largely due to mental reasons that I would relate to will checks. Not because being in live combat suddenly changes the way hand eye coordination works.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Roh

Ulzgoroth, I would absolutely agree. But largely due to mental reasons that I would relate to will checks. Not because being in live combat suddenly changes the way hand eye coordination works.

From descriptions seen on these forums, it seems like it actually rather does change how dexterity in general works.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

nonetheless 'shooting under range conditions' and 'shooting under combat conditions' are significantly different

True.

It's also the case that only some participants in variants of the sport in general go for the more "realistic" forms with moving and pop-up targets, simulated room clearing, timers to encourage rapid shooting, etc. A similar point was made about archery -- and in fact, quite a lot of archers do shoot exactly at fixed targets at known ranges. (See the Olympics.) Sure, other styles exist -- and you can always buy the combat version if you think that's a better fit for this particular character.

But "realistic" is in scare quotes because even those forms omit the most important realistic element -- targets that are shooting back, including a real possibility of serious harm or death to you. The -3 default between sport and combat skills is actually a slight improvement over the +4 / -4 "out of combat" / "non-adventuring" or "routine" TDM that most skills get. The difference is more in the psychological and physiological (adrenaline, etc, that you're unused to), and not just about the mechanics of handling your gun and lining up the sights.

GMs can of course introduce even more gradations. If you feel a need for Guns (Super-Realistic Combat Simulations) with only a -2 penalty, or a -1, feel free. Though for a character with that kind of background, I'd probably just put Guns on the character sheet. It's not really that exclusive of a club. It's more a case where using Sport version is a specific declaration that this character doesn't have anything like that kind of experience, a matter of roleplaying and reflecting the concept, than it is that the non-Sport version is some sort of elite threshold that the characters can't have at design time.

There are also the games where the characters are intended to be "normals", again specifically without anything like combat experience as a premise of the game, so the zombie apocalypse (or whatever) is more terrifying for them. GMs might well make the combat version of Guns much harder to have in those settings -- at least until you've seen the zombie elephant and had enough grit rubbed in your face that you've learned it through hard experience.

[Dr. Beckenstein]

For me, it covers really just sport shooting, which has little to nothing to do with combat shooting. It would be more for a character background.

As I understand it, Sports (any kind) cover practice and training under "sportive" circumstances, i.e., in a indoor shooting range. It also allows you to make a living if you are good enough and to understand and maybe abuse the rules.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_sport