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Old 08-13-2019, 01:21 AM   #1
Ultraviolet
 
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Default [TG] Grapple is mutual, but can all techs be initiated from a grapple on you?

Grapples art mutual, it says.

But are there any limits to which techniques can be initiated from a grapple on me, rather than one I made on the enemy?

E.g. Enemy grapples my arm. Can I then - with all the relevant CP penalties - put *him* in an Arm Lock, without needing to grapple him first? That LOck sounds poor, since I have to CP on him to use for damage/pain - so how will it work?
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Old 08-13-2019, 02:07 AM   #2
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Default Re: [TG] Grapple is mutual, but can all techs be initiated from a grapple on you?

IIRC, from mutual grappling you can initiate only DX-default techniques, not sure about ST-deafault ones. And locks skill-default only, so you can't lock someone without something special like perk or advantage.
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Old 08-13-2019, 02:22 AM   #3
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Default Re: [TG] Grapple is mutual, but can all techs be initiated from a grapple on you?

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Originally Posted by Ultraviolet View Post
E.g. Enemy grapples my arm. Can I then - with all the relevant CP penalties - put *him* in an Arm Lock, without needing to grapple him first?
That depends: is he grappling you with his arm, or is he using his hand/teeth/legs?
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Old 08-13-2019, 02:30 AM   #4
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Default Re: [TG] Grapple is mutual, but can all techs be initiated from a grapple on you?

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
That depends: is he grappling you with his arm, or is he using his hand/teeth/legs?
In this example I assume an enemy using a hand to grapple my arm.
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Old 08-13-2019, 02:45 AM   #5
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Default Re: [TG] Grapple is mutual, but can all techs be initiated from a grapple on you?

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Originally Posted by Paydalanw View Post
IIRC, from mutual grappling you can initiate only DX-default techniques, not sure about ST-deafault ones. And locks skill-default only, so you can't lock someone without something special like perk or advantage.
That sort of makes sense. You can't do "fancy" stuff like locks, but you can do "basic" stuff like Change Position, Force Posture Change.
Otherwise if you grapple a highly skilled grappler, with the intent of putting him in an arm lock, you risk getting into one yourself in an instant.
But it sounds like the grapples enemy needs to initiate a grapple of his own, Breaking Free or not first, before making a lock.
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Old 08-13-2019, 03:08 AM   #6
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Default Re: [TG] Grapple is mutual, but can all techs be initiated from a grapple on you?

The key thing is like you say a lot of techniques are limited in effect by the amount of CP you have when you do them, and you'll have 0CP at that point. So even if you manage to put a joint lock on him off a 0CP mutual grapple you have with your grappled arm on his grappling arm, it's not going to do you much good in terms of applying it. Like you say it will be a poor lock. You need to get those CP from somewhere and that means an active grapple attempt.



So OK I see it like this. The chap holding your arm has grappled you (and likely has some CP* on your arm and thus possibly refereed CP on the rest of you as well).

But by doing so he's also put his arm in direct contact with you and fixed it somewhat in place relative to you. This equates to you having a 0CP grapple on his arm with your arm that you can try and build off from. It's also why you will enjoy the half location penalty for trying to grapple his arm with another grappling limb, bite or whatever.

Now you could try and grapple his grappling arm back with your grappled arm and benefit from already having established a mutual grapple (no location penalty at all as a grapple is already initiated). But unless you have a significant advantage in skill or ST you are at a disadvantage when doing so as your grapple will be passively penalised by the CP he has on your arm, and if he chooses he can use those CP to actively make it harder (obviously at the cost of using them).

But nothing's stopping you from taking your other arm and grappling his initial grappling arm, you can then use both arms on his one arm** likely getting a net advantage in CP that makes it easier to get a subsequent lock with and use it to do nasty things with that lock.

The point being it's easier for you to do that if he's already put his arm on you because by doing so he's initiated contact (but again he's done so by starting to accrue CP and the ability apply them to you, first)


*(EDIT) of course unless he's strong and/or skilled a one handed grapple isn't likely to give a lot of CP here!

**of course he's an active participant in all this and will be responding and taking his own actions as well when he can! However this is why multiple attacks or combos that allow you to grapple and lock in one turn are great if you are skilled enough to pull them off!




Tl:dr grappling is mutual but the net position of CP on each other and the bits of each other you're trying to do things to, is important in terms of actually doing those things with the desired effect.
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Old 08-13-2019, 03:36 AM   #7
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Default Re: [TG] Grapple is mutual, but can all techs be initiated from a grapple on you?

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Originally Posted by Ultraviolet View Post
That sort of makes sense. You can't do "fancy" stuff like locks, but you can do "basic" stuff like Change Position, Force Posture Change.
Otherwise if you grapple a highly skilled grappler, with the intent of putting him in an arm lock, you risk getting into one yourself in an instant.
But it sounds like the grapples enemy needs to initiate a grapple of his own, Breaking Free or not first, before making a lock.
Thing is if you grapple a highly skilled grappler with the intent to put them in an arm lock you do risk getting locked back pretty damn quickly. But how quickly they can do this is going to be down to how much better they are than you and how good they are in their own right though. (you might well have CP on them to make it difficult for them to reverse the attempt after all)
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Old 08-13-2019, 07:28 AM   #8
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Default Re: [TG] Grapple is mutual, but can all techs be initiated from a grapple on you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultraviolet View Post
That sort of makes sense. You can't do "fancy" stuff like locks, but you can do "basic" stuff like Change Position, Force Posture Change.
Otherwise if you grapple a highly skilled grappler, with the intent of putting him in an arm lock, you risk getting into one yourself in an instant.
But it sounds like the grapples enemy needs to initiate a grapple of his own, Breaking Free or not first, before making a lock.
Nearly every "self defense" move I learn in Hwa Rang Do - and there are 365 of them, less two or three sets that are offensive in nature - are initiated after a grapple by someone else.

These were high on my mind when I made those rules.

The big "gift" that the mutual grapple gives is that there are many cases where you get the benefit of "no hit location penalties" to improve a grapple. Someone grabs you? Great, improve the 0 CP arm grapple they just gave you without the -1 to the arm or -2 to the wrist/hand.

So you can definitely engage in a low-CP arm lock (in real life, that'd be, say, the initial move to put the joint in a compromising position), but then you'll re-attack to improve the grapple. Most martial arts teach this as an All-Out Attack (Double) in class, which is why you don't see this as much in MMA. You see more Wrestling stuff, and only after significant ground work *in most cases* do you see an Arm Bar or Shoulder Lock (both considered Arm Lock in GURPS).

Highly skilled martial artists or those with Extra Attack don't have to AoA(2x) to get this done.
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Old 08-13-2019, 08:04 AM   #9
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Default Re: [TG] Grapple is mutual, but can all techs be initiated from a grapple on you?

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
Nearly every "self defense" move I learn in Hwa Rang Do - and there are 365 of them, less two or three sets that are offensive in nature - are initiated after a grapple by someone else.

....
In GURPS grabbing parry works well here (if you can pull it off) best of all possible worlds your attacker doesn't even get their grapple in place, and you get you first grapple and potential CP in place before your turn!
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Old 08-13-2019, 08:39 AM   #10
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Default Re: [TG] Grapple is mutual, but can all techs be initiated from a grapple on you?

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
In GURPS grabbing parry works well here (if you can pull it off) best of all possible worlds your attacker doesn't even get their grapple in place, and you get you first grapple and potential CP in place before your turn!
Yes and no. There are plenty of defenses against an actively attacking foe, but by and large, those are combat defenses.

Many of the self defense style techniques are used against something much more akin to physical intimidation. We have techniques against various wrist grabs (yellow sash), cloth grabs (green; I used one of these in college to very good effect), defenses against kicks (red sash) and double-wrist grabs (also red). Blue is eclectic.

But most of these presume that you're not going from zero to mortal combat. Someone's grabbing you to take you somewhere or provide a physical threat, or a prelude to what they expect to be a one-sided show of force. They presume, in most cases, an attacker who does not really expect sudden and effective resistance.

On the other hand, the half-black defenses against knife attacks are nearly all grabbing parries.

More broadly, grabs to the torso and head we tend to do grabbing parry. Grabs to the limbs we tend to allow and then take advantage. Defenses against more aggressive attacks - strikes and lunges to grab - we use grabbing parry.

So it's a mix, but the presumption that - largely for social/legal reasons - you "need" to allow the initial criminal assault (offensive touching) to land means that you frequently do start from the other guy grappling you, usually lightly.
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