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Old 11-21-2019, 03:37 PM   #1
hcobb
 
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Default My unit calculator is wrong

My unit calculator keeps suggesting that the SHVY is 2.5 armor units and the Missile Tank needs Hvy Tank style terrain adjustments (at MA 2).

This is clearly incorrect because these tweaks would unbalance the game. I just can't seem to find the scenario that these changes break.

Can you please point me towards some testing that shows how unbalanced these changes would be?
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Old 11-21-2019, 11:24 PM   #2
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Default Re: My unit calculator is wrong

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
My unit calculator keeps suggesting that the SHVY is 2.5 armor units...
Can you please point me towards some testing that shows how unbalanced these changes would be?
How about the extensive thread where we've discussed at length the fact the current SHVY is underpriced at 2AU? The 1984 SHVY is 2AU, and the current SHVY is 2AU... one of them is wrong.
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Old 11-22-2019, 05:44 AM   #3
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Default Re: My unit calculator is wrong

There's still the error in the formula with respect to the missile tank. So if somebody could test the scenarios and show why that change would wreak the game please?
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Old 11-22-2019, 08:35 AM   #4
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Default Re: My unit calculator is wrong

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
There's still the error in the formula with respect to the missile tank. So if somebody could test the scenarios and show why that change would wreak the game please?
What's the error? I get 5.67 in the calculator which is a pretty solid 1AU unit. Not everything is exactly 6VP
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Old 11-22-2019, 09:39 AM   #5
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Default Re: My unit calculator is wrong

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Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
What's the error? I get 5.67 in the calculator which is a pretty solid 1AU unit. Not everything is exactly 6VP
Agreed. While upping the movement mode to HVY yields an exact 6VP, I've always taken the 1AU = 6VP as being an approximation. Heck, the HVY comes in at 6.17VP when you let INF ride it (and the LT at 3.17), and nobody's arguing about that either. I will say that the MSL has always been the weakest of the "standard" armor units, and the 5.67VP does a good job of reflecting it. Would an MSL that moved like a HVY rather than a LT break things? I don't know - it only makes a difference on the green maps to begin with, and that's where they've had the advantage of being able to hide behind forest/swamp and hit targets on the other side that have to slow down to get through, so I'm not sure they need the boost there either.

Essentially I'm asking, what's the problem you're trying to solve, other than that the value isn't exactly 6VP as currently written?
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Old 11-22-2019, 10:12 AM   #6
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Default Re: My unit calculator is wrong

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Originally Posted by GranitePenguin View Post
How about the extensive thread where we've discussed at length the fact the current SHVY is underpriced at 2AU?
Or *cough* the article summarizing the history and options?

The one line summary: The unit calculator isn't broken. The current SHVY cost is broken.
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Old 11-22-2019, 10:40 AM   #7
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Default Re: My unit calculator is wrong

One of the reasons to give the Missile Tank improved mobility is to deal with SHVY in woods.

Steve Jackson asked some buffoon if the D5 SHVY was okay, and the incorrect hand calculation that waved that through can be found in the OGRE Book. (Henry doesn't add up, apparently.)
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Old 11-24-2019, 06:08 PM   #8
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Default Re: My unit calculator is wrong

I've played many many games for over a year now with the SHVY at 2.5AU at conventions with a wide pool of players and that has been working fine in different scenarios and different force builds by different players.

I'm confident that is the right price and not influenced by a local meta.
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Old 11-24-2019, 06:15 PM   #9
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Default Re: My unit calculator is wrong

I've seen the maths, but have been hesitant to change the MSL cost. We've discussed it periodically with the core group of local players, and the general consensus among us keeps coming back to the fact that it works well enough as is.

It's a support tank, and used as such in small numbers to support the front line tanks, no one has felt like they were bad buys at the current cost. Folks haven't been shying away from buying them to back up the line.

Also discussed is that it is only one of two vehicles that use the Light Tracked terrain column, and it would seem weird for the LT to have a column just for itself.
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Old 12-17-2019, 12:07 PM   #10
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Default Re: My unit calculator is wrong

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Originally Posted by selenite View Post
Or *cough* the article summarizing the history and options?

The one line summary: The unit calculator isn't broken. The current SHVY cost is broken.
There's one option missing from that article, the option I've always used: ignore SHVYs, never use them.

I've never liked SHVYs from the moment they were introduced. Not for game-breaking reasons (though that is a welcome confirmation of my gut feeling), but because they violate a key element of Ogre aesthetics: armor units are one shotters, both shooting and being killed, while Ogres are multishotters that can divide their fire and have to be chipped away at. SHVYs attempt to be both fish and flesh and simply don't feel right to me.

There's also an element of wanting to fill out a conceptual system simply because the space "seems" to be there: I mean that if you have a heavy tank, you must also have a light and a medium, and a superheavy. Like in Car Wars they invented light, heavy and finally even medium lasers because there was a stat gap that "needed" to be filled. I accept light tanks and the fan-designed mediums but superheavies I reject.
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