Alternate form super

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

Where you're going wrong is rounding before each step of Reduced Time. You apply all the divisions, then round. So it's:
Reduced Time 1: 5 seconds
Reduced Time 2: 2.5 seconds
Reduced Time 3: 1.25 seconds
Reduced Time 4: 0.625 seconds

And since you only need to reduce the time below 1 second for the "activate as a free action" thing to kick in, that's what you need.

Interesting.
Krommquote :
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...53&postcount=8

Halve and round up at each level; 10, 5, 3, 2, 1, 0 is correct; so is 60, 30, 15, 8, 4, 2, 1, 0.

Power pg 87 list reduced time 7 for insta-visualization, which imply rounding at each step 60, 30, 15, 8, 4, 2, 1, 0.

But
Power pg 149 does list reducing time 4 for insta-Elastic skin (base time also 10 seconds).

So .. this is ambiguous.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

Interesting.
Krommquote :
http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...53&postcount=8

But
Power pg 149 does list reducing time 4 for insta-Elastic skin (base time also 10 seconds).

So .. this is ambiguous.

Yeah, that's odd. I was just going with the general rule that you do all your math first, then round at the end. Clearly Kromm thinks otherwise for Reduced Time, but, as you say, the example for Elastic Skin is then wrong. I suppose that Reduced Time 5 is a nice even +100%, which actually sounds pretty fair for turning "10 seconds wait to transform" into "transform without taking up any time", so I guess I'll side with Kromm on this one - take Reduced Time 5, not 4, to make transforming a free action.

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

The way I understand the OP, and which my build reflect, there is no 'base form'. Just 4 forms he switch between, each with their own skills, powers, personality, ...
Once on stay on give this, and the most expensive form doesn't have the 10% discount because of it.

Edit:
Ok, I see what you mean with the 3 or 4.
Yes, if one form is a base form, I have one AF too many.
But I think my way is legit, implying the character is always in an AF or another ? It cost 15 more, but means each form can be truly different.

BTW, rule question, I may be wrong.
AF is 15 cp (+-modifers) + 90% of the cost of the most expensive template + flat 15 cp per other AF.
But I see you and others also modify the cost of the additionals flat 15 if the original is modified ?
Did I missed a rule somewhere ?
In this case, is the AFs cost 45+200+15+15(+15) or 45+200+45+45(+45) ?

Thanks

As a note, Once On Stays On increases the percentage taken into account from 90% to 100%.

How I interpret the rules - and GCA backs me up on this, I note - is to treat Alternate Form as a leveled advantage, 15 points per level/form, then add the 90% (or 100%) of the most expensive form (in the examples we've been using, let's call it 200 points), and apply the modifiers to that total. After all, you don't apply the modifiers on an Innate Attack or Affliction to just the first level and buy the additional levels of those unmodified, so why treat Alternate Form any differently?

[AlexanderHowl]

You should apply the cost of the modifiers to the Alternate Form(s) before you add the cost of the template.

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

As a note, Once On Stays On increases the percentage taken into account from 90% to 100%.

How I interpret the rules - and GCA backs me up on this, I note - is to treat Alternate Form as a leveled advantage, 15 points per level/form, then add the 90% (or 100%) of the most expensive form (in the examples we've been using, let's call it 200 points), and apply the modifiers to that total. After all, you don't apply the modifiers on an Innate Attack or Affliction to just the first level and buy the additional levels of those unmodified, so why treat Alternate Form any differently?

I did take Once on stay on into account on the build.

Thanks for clearing the rules, I have been using it wrongly from start.
I think I only had one player with multiples AF, and I only shortchanged him of the -10% of a power modifier, so not much harm done, but still...

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

You should apply the cost of the modifiers to the Alternate Form(s) before you add the cost of the template.

This is one area where we disagree. Again, I point to the similarities between Alternate Form and Innate Attack, in this case the adding partial damage to the dice For example, +2 to a crushing attack is an additional 3 points before modifiers; 1d+2 crushing is a total of 8 points. Using the same logic, the difference in point value of "racial" templates between alternate forms (assuming a 0 point Human template and a 200-point Elemental template here) would be factored in before the percentages from various modifiers on Alternate Form itself.

So a 200 point Alternate Form with a bunch of modifiers (including Once On Stays On) adding up to let's say +25% is (200+15)+25% which comes to 268.75 points, rounded up to 269 points total, not 219 ((15+25%)+200) points. Four such AFs would be (200+15+15+15+15)+25% or 325 points.

That said, if the base "racial" form is worth 200 points by itself, and you have three other Alternate Forms that are 200 points or less each, then since the difference in racial templates is 0 or less you don't need to worry about such a calculation; it's just (15*3)+25%, or 56.25 rounded up to 57.

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

This is one area where we disagree. Again, I point to the similarities between Alternate Form and Innate Attack, in this case the adding partial damage to the dice For example, +2 to a crushing attack is an additional 3 points before modifiers; 1d+2 crushing is a total of 8 points. Using the same logic, the difference in point value of "racial" templates between alternate forms (assuming a 0 point Human template and a 200-point Elemental template here) would be factored in before the percentages from various modifiers on Alternate Form itself.

So a 200 point Alternate Form with a bunch of modifiers (including Once On Stays On) adding up to let's say +25% is (200+15)+25% which comes to 268.75 points, rounded up to 269 points total, not 219 ((15+25%)+200) points. Four such AFs would be (200+15+15+15+15)+25% or 325 points.

That said, if the base "racial" form is worth 200 points by itself, and you have three other Alternate Forms that are 200 points or less each, then since the difference in racial templates is 0 or less you don't need to worry about such a calculation; it's just (15*3)+25%, or 56.25 rounded up to 57.

On this, the Faq is clear and favor the other interpretation:

3.2.15 How do I compute the cost of enhancements and limitations for Shapeshifting?

All enhancements and limitations only apply to the base cost of the Shapeshifting ability itself (either 15 points for Alternate Form or 100 points for Morph). They do not apply to the additional cost of a more powerful form.

Enhancements and limitations are for the transformation process only, and do not apply once the shapeshifter is in the alternate shape. The transformation process is transient, not ongoing; once you are transformed, your ability is NOT considered in use anymore. If you want to put enhancements or limitations on the use of the alternate form itself, apply them to the alternate template or the individual traits it uses.

For example, say I'm a human who wants an Alternate Form whose racial template is worth 50 points. The unmodified cost is 15 + (50*0.9) = 60 points. Now, let's say I want the Cost Fatigue × 2 limitation, a -10% value, and Reduced Time × 4, a +80% value. The new cost of the advantage is ( 15 * (-10+80)% ) + ( 50*0.9 ) = (15*1.7) + 45 = 25.5 + 45 = 71 points.

For those wondering why the modifiers are only applied to the shapeshifting part of the process, consider the following:

If you apply an enhancement to the complete cost of an Alternate Form, the advantages you bought for this form could end up costing you more than if you had bought them for your original form and had them available 100% of the time.
Take a 500-point-template Alternate form, slap some Costs Fatigue and Takes Extra Time until you're at -80%, then spend all of your time in the more powerful form. The result is you'll be a 500 point creature for only 93 points. Talk about a point crock.

My mistake was in not applying the modifier to the [15] cost of further AF.

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

On this, the Faq is clear and favor the other interpretation

Huh... that means I'll have to seriously reprice Hulk, Ghost Rider, Lizard, and a few others with Alternate Forms. (Then again, I've been using GCA to handle all the math involved since I tend to have numeric dyslexia about long lists of numbers... I'll add up the same numbers three times and come up with three different - and probably all wrong - answers.)

[Mr_Sandman]

Thanks for the input everybody. It really helped me nail down how to write up this character.