Alternate form super

[Mr_Sandman]

I'm starting up a supers campaign and one of my players wants to run a character with 4 alternate forms that "trades places" similar to Billy Batson and Captain Marvel/Shazam.

In this case, only one of four different individuals can exist at a time. The individuals don't share attributes or skills, or if I understand him correctly, even memories. They each know the others exist and can change between each other at will. So the player can always select the form/skills/powers that best fit the situation. Each form has elemental powers so they each represent one of earth/air/water/fire.

I think it's an interesting concept, but I'm a bit stumped by what suite of advantages, disadvantages, enhancements and limitations to use to represent it, and how much they should cost. How would people here go about writing something like that up?

[Kelly Pedersen]

Well, it definitely sounds like Alternate Forms, that's for sure, so that's where I'd start with.

Now, normally Alternate Forms swap racial templates. However, as the GM, you're free to allow stuff on the templates that don't necessarily reflect an actual "race" in your setting. The really key thing is to define everything that one character will lose while the other characters gain - that's the "racial template". So, for instance, if the Fire Hero has DX 12 [20] and Innate Attack (Breath)-15 [8], while the Water Hero has DX 11 [10] and Swimming-13 [8], then the Fire Hero would have a "racial template" that cost 28, while the Water Hero would cost 18, and when they transformed from Fire into Water, they'd lose one point of DX, and the Innate Attack skill, but gain the Swimming skill.

Does the character have a default form? One that they'll revert to if they're knocked unconscious or subjected to power-dampening effects or something? If so, use that form to define the basic racial template, and all the other forms will be built in relation to that. Calculate the cost based on any traits they gain or lose, basically. So if they have 16 points in Accounting skill in their default form, lose that in the Fire Hero form but gain those 8 point in Innate Attack (Breath), that's a net loss of 8 points.

If there isn't a default form, they'll need the Once On, Stays On enhancement (Powers, p. 75). It's still a good idea to pick one of the forms as the "default" here, since you still need something to calculate the points off of. However, you can always make that the most expensive form, since that means that all the other forms will just cost a flat 15 points (plus modifiers) apiece.

For the "doesn't remember what the others did", that's the Amnesia disadvantage. Supers gives "Only in civilian/hero identity" as a -20% limitation for Amnesia, but that's based on there only being two options to switch between. I think for four or five identities, none of whom share memories, a -10% limitation is probably more reasonable. This disadvantage would not be on the racial template of any of the forms, and thus it would be shared by all of them automatically.

[AlexanderHowl]

I think that it would be a special form of Amnesia [-10] and a quirk Personality Change [-1] for each Alternate Form template. I would have him design the common capabilities of all form for the super first and then have each template add on to the common capabilities. I would Absorptive Change (Super), Non-Reciprocal Damage, Reciprocal Rest, and Super, and I would probably advise the player to take Reduced Time 4, which would total a +160% modifier for the base advantage, meaning that each Alternate Form would be worth 39 points (a total of 156 points for four Alternative Forms). If each Alternate Form template possessed a cost of 250 points (meaning 225 points at 90%), you would end up paying 381 points for all of them. If you had a 500 point character, that would leave you with a base 119 points for common capabilities. The end result would be a character with five forms (four super and one normal), with the ability to shift from one form to another once per turn as a free action.

[Phantasm]

I had a similar issue when I was working with the Hulk, given that Hulk's mind is essentially a second personality inside Banner's mind.

What I came up with was to build both Banner and Hulk as distinct characters, then build the Alternate Form for the Hulk based on what was different between them. If Banner had an Advantage Hulk didn't, I applied a negating Disadvantage (e.g. "No High Manual Dexterity") on the "racial" template; likewise, if Banner had a Disad that Hulk didn't (e.g. "No Bad Sight (Nearsighted)", I treated its loss as an Advantage on the "racial" template. A missing Skill is also treated as a Disad.

I also added Reciprocal Rest to the Alternate Form trait itself since usually damage to the one is removed from the other. I didn't add Temporary Disadvantage: Partial Amnesia to the Alt-Form, though in the OP's case it might be appropriate.

In the OP's 4-character setup, I'd probably designate one as the "base" form, and treat the other three as Alternate Forms; all after designing the four base characters of course. If all four are super-powered, I'd use the priciest one as the "base" form (making the Alt-Form only 15/form, as the "racial" templates would be less than the main "racial" form); however, if there's one that the character defaults to should the powers be suppressed, I'd use that one as the base even if it's the weakest.

Hope this helps.


I would not use Split Personality unless you can get all their mental traits adding up to the same amount of points properly. That's nearly impossible in practice, IME.

[Celjabba]

I would build it without a true base form :

Alternate Forms base cost [45]
(Absorptive Change (Extra-Heavy Encumbrance) +25%;
Non-Reciprocal Damage +50%;
Non-Reciprocal Memory -50% (house-rule)
Once On, Stays On +50%;
Reduced Time (+4)+80%;
Reflexive +40%)
--Alternate Form (Air) [200] (build on 200 pts) (no 10% reduction due to once on stay on !)
--Alternate Form (Water) [45] (build on up to 200 pts)
--Alternate Form (Earth) [45] (build on up to 200 pts)
--Alternate Form (Fire) [45] (build on up to 200 pts)

You may also want to add reciprocal rest.


To avoid blatant point abuse, the lowest attributes among all form (not counting meta trait like body of xxx or true racial template) should go outside the alternate form and be bough up from that point in each form. Otherwise, you could have one high IQ form with 0 ST and DX and instantly switch to another if physical action is needed...
Same with most disadvantages not included in a meta trait/racial template, put them outside and buy them off in each form that don't have them.
Shared disadvantages (enemies, ... ) should definitively be outside, don't count them 4 times !
Mental/social disadvantages, I would leave in each AF.

For skills and advantages, I would probably not bother with negated xxx, ... just start with 4 (mostly) blank state and build 4 separate characters. However, be aware that this is one of the most cost-effective way to munchkin a super !!!

Edit : corrected the cost of further AF from [15] to [45]

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

For skills and advantages, I would probably not bother with negated xxx, ... just start with 4 (mostly) blank state and build 4 separate characters. However, be aware that this is one of the most cost-effective way to munchkin a super !!!

This depends on which form is the "base" form. Does the OP have a Billy Batson/Bruce Banner type "main" form with skills the super-powered hero forms don't have? (Pretty sure Captain Marvel has Batson's skills, but Hulk almost never shows Banner's scientific skills, his short-lived "Doc Green" incarnation being a notable exception. I don't even recall "The Professor"/Combined Hulk from Peter David's '90s run using Banner's scientific skills that often.) If the hero forms aren't able to access the unpowered base form's skills, I'd have those negated.

I'd ask if the different characters all had the same number of points spent on skills. This would be a key factor in whether the AFs would negate the base form's advantages/skills or not.

Also, if one of those four elemental forms is the "base" form, then it'd only be 15x3 for the various Alt-Forms before modifiers, not 15x4.

[Celjabba]

The way I understand the OP, and which my build reflect, there is no 'base form'. Just 4 forms he switch between, each with their own skills, powers, personality, ...
Once on stay on give this, and the most expensive form doesn't have the 10% discount because of it.

Edit:
Ok, I see what you mean with the 3 or 4.
Yes, if one form is a base form, I have one AF too many.
But I think my way is legit, implying the character is always in an AF or another ? It cost 15 more, but means each form can be truly different.

BTW, rule question, I may be wrong.
AF is 15 cp (+-modifers) + 90% of the cost of the most expensive template + flat 15 cp per other AF.
But I see you and others also modify the cost of the additionals flat 15 if the original is modified ?
Did I missed a rule somewhere ?
In this case, is the AFs cost 45+200+15+15(+15) or 45+200+45+45(+45) ?

Thanks

[AlexanderHowl]

Reflexive already includes one level of Reduced Time, so you only need Reduced Time 3, not 4. Each form is 15 points plus modifiers after the most powerful form (flat just refers to not having the template cost).

[Celjabba]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Reflexive already includes one level of Reduced Time, so you only need Reduced Time 3, not 4. Each form is 15 points plus modifiers after the most powerful form (flat just refers to not having the template cost).

I may be wrong, but :
No reduced time - 10 sec
reduced time 1 - 5 sec
reduced time 2 - 3 sec
reduced time 3 - 2 sec
reduced time 4 - 1 sec
reduced time 5 - free action

and thanks for the correction on "flat", I have been misunderstanding it for a long time.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

I may be wrong, but :
No reduced time - 10 sec
reduced time 1 - 5 sec
reduced time 2 - 3 sec
reduced time 3 - 2 sec
reduced time 4 - 1 sec
reduced time 5 - free action

Where you're going wrong is rounding before each step of Reduced Time. You apply all the divisions, then round. So it's:
Reduced Time 1: 5 seconds
Reduced Time 2: 2.5 seconds
Reduced Time 3: 1.25 seconds
Reduced Time 4: 0.625 seconds

And since you only need to reduce the time below 1 second for the "activate as a free action" thing to kick in, that's what you need.