[DF] Is It Possible To Have Both Holy And Unholy Might?

[scc]

Exactly what it says on the tin, if I play an Infernal using the rules that allow them to take Unholy abilities as racial abilities and if my character is a Cleric can I have both Holy and Unholy Might? And if so can I use them at the same time?

[The Colonel]

I would strongly expect your GM to say "No" (at a minimum).
Not least for flavour reasons - whilst there's nothing in RAW that I know of to prevent this, I certainly wouldn't tolerate a character drawing from two mutually exclusive power sources without some overwhelmingly good reason.

[Anaraxes]

If your GM allows it in the first place -- which I agree is the questionable part, and the concept being the most important part of the build -- there's no purely mechanical reason why both abilities wouldn't stack.

Both abilities come with Pact-like restrictions as part of their 10% discount. It would be difficult to obey both sets at once and not violate the other. So in play, it seems that you'd be likely to lose access to one or the other ability before long. While it might be possible to have both, it might not be wise.

I'd probably apply any level caps on these abilities and their Talents to the sum of both.

[Celjabba]

Unholy abilities ...<are> 10% off because the recipient must take Social Stigma (Excommunicated)

Holy abilities ... If he transgresses, he loses his power

You could have both abilities on the character sheet, but you won't be using them at the same time. Choose which god you follow, and accept that the other one a) will not empower you and b) won't be pleased.

Except perhaps in some strange and dire circumstances against "Things from Outside (tm)" when both deities would agree to cooperate. Maybe.

And I would have either talent acting as minus to the opposite.

That said, it depend of the cosmology ... Stacking both could make sense in some cases. A god of war that is "holy" as in "the holy hand grenade" and an half-spirit born from chaos for example. Or the followers of 2 Pantheons from 2 separate worlds ? Only the GM can decide.

[evileeyore]

It's up to your GM. I'd say no, but who knows what they'd say.

[Kromm]

Be careful with the rules in this case! Dungeon Fantasy 7: Clerics, p. 6, has this to say:

[...] players of celestial or infernal PCs – who have Divine Gifts or Infernal Gifts as perks in their racial templates – may opt to replace the standard, "generic" list of gifts for their races (given on pp. 12-13 of Dungeon Fantasy 3) with options from their spirit-parent's Holy or Unholy abilities list (see Chapter 2 here) as innate advantages, without the power modifier.

Pay special attention to the part I've made bold. Infernals don't actually have Unholy Might . . . rather, they replace the standard Infernal Gifts list on p. 13 of Dungeon Fantasy 3 with Unholy Abilities on p. 41, paying the full cost because those abilities are now racial and lack the Unholy power modifier.

The crucial part is that the lack of a power modifier absolves the infernal of the need for special behavior to keep their abilities. The abilities are in their blood, not on their soul. They're birthright, not a pact. In theory, then, the infernal could continue to use them while making a pact that grants Holy Might.

The biggest problem is that all infernals have Social Stigma (Infernal), and Social Stigma (Infernal) includes Social Stigma (Excommunicated); see p. 11 of Dungeon Fantasy 3. This means that helpful clerical spells work at -3 on you. Thus if you're a "good" cleric with Holy Might, you'll always self-buff and self-heal at -3 if you use spells. But the penalty affects beneficial spells cast on you – not spells you cast on others and definitely not powers – so Holy Might works normally as long as you observe the right moral code.

A lesser problem is that all infernals have Weakness (Blessed areas and areas of high or better sanctity to Good gods; Occasional; 1d/minute). Thus, in areas where their "good" cleric spells are most effective, they start to die. But again, this is about spells and has nothing to do with powers.

Being an excommunicate cleric isn't necessarily nonsense, either. It mainly means that the high-profile "legitimate" cults of the land have cast you out. You may well worship a good-but-disparaged deity. Dungeon Fantasy 7: Clerics offers several examples of this.

Personally, I would allow an infernal to swap standard Infernal Gifts for the advantages of Unholy Might, minus their power modifier, and then become a cleric who has Holy Might. The only condition I'd put on this is that the cleric couldn't serve one of the major nice-guy cults of love, healing, the sun, etc. I'd insist they serve the temple of death, the (deep) earth, (orgiastic) fertility, rogues, the night, etc. They'd be essentially good but not nice, and likely sought out by the temple for their personal knowledge of the dark side of life – "know thy enemy" and all that.

[scc]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Be careful with the rules in this case! Dungeon Fantasy 7: Clerics, p. 6, has this to say:

[...] players of celestial or infernal PCs – who have Divine Gifts or Infernal Gifts as perks in their racial templates – may opt to replace the standard, "generic" list of gifts for their races (given on pp. 12-13 of Dungeon Fantasy 3) with options from their spirit-parent's Holy or Unholy abilities list (see Chapter 2 here) as innate advantages, without the power modifier.

Pay special attention to the part I've made bold. Infernals don't actually have Unholy Might . . . rather, they replace the standard Infernal Gifts list on p. 13 of Dungeon Fantasy 3 with Unholy Abilities on p. 41, paying the full cost because those abilities are now racial and lack the Unholy power modifier.

The crucial part is that the lack of a power modifier absolves the infernal of the need for special behavior to keep their abilities. The abilities are in their blood, not on their soul. They're birthright, not a pact. In theory, then, the infernal could continue to use them while making a pact that grants Holy Might.

This so much, it was getting rather late for me when I posted, so I was in a bit of a hurry and not thinking things through properly.

Originally Posted by Kromm

The biggest problem is that all infernals have Social Stigma (Infernal), and Social Stigma (Infernal) includes Social Stigma (Excommunicated); see p. 11 of Dungeon Fantasy 3. This means that helpful clerical spells work at -3 on you. Thus if you're a "good" cleric with Holy Might, you'll always self-buff and self-heal at -3 if you use spells. But the penalty affects beneficial spells cast on you – not spells you cast on others and definitely not powers – so Holy Might works normally as long as you observe the right moral code.

A lesser problem is that all infernals have Weakness (Blessed areas and areas of high or better sanctity to Good gods; Occasional; 1d/minute). Thus, in areas where their "good" cleric spells are most effective, they start to die. But again, this is about spells and has nothing to do with powers.

Being an excommunicate cleric isn't necessarily nonsense, either. It mainly means that the high-profile "legitimate" cults of the land have cast you out. You may well worship a good-but-disparaged deity. Dungeon Fantasy 7: Clerics offers several examples of this.

Personally, I would allow an infernal to swap standard Infernal Gifts for the advantages of Unholy Might, minus their power modifier, and then become a cleric who has Holy Might. The only condition I'd put on this is that the cleric couldn't serve one of the major nice-guy cults of love, healing, the sun, etc. I'd insist they serve the temple of death, the (deep) earth, (orgiastic) fertility, rogues, the night, etc. They'd be essentially good but not nice, and likely sought out by the temple for their personal knowledge of the dark side of life – "know thy enemy" and all that.

I kind of figured that you would have to take Forgiven and Unholy as Hell power-ups first before you can become a Cleric.

That said, a new idea appears: What would it take for an Infernal or Celestial to start granting people Holy or Unholy Might abilities?

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by scc

I kind of figured that you would have to take Forgiven and Unholy as Hell power-ups first before you can become a Cleric.

That would certainly make life easier for a (good) infernal cleric! I wouldn't require those power-ups if I were the GM, though. Fiction is full of heroes who suffer for their convictions and/or who are defined by succeeding despite bad odds. Certain players gravitate to such angst, and I'd be fine with such a gamer opting to play a cleric with a tortured soul . . . under the condition that they don't quote too many teen vampire romances.

Originally Posted by scc

That said, a new idea appears: What would it take for an Infernal or Celestial to start granting people Holy or Unholy Might abilities?

For one specific advantage (holy/unholy ability), GURPS Powers, p. 119, defines that as:

Affliction (Advantage, +10% per point of advantages; Extended Duration, Permanent, Irreversible, +300%) [40 + price of the advantages]

If you want to grant just about any holy/unholy ability, take Cosmic Power (p. B71) with Physical (+50%), Focus-Limited (Holy or Unholy), -10%, and Trait-Limited, Afflictions that grant permanent advantages (-50%). This can be shifted to become the previous Affliction for any holy/unholy ability, not just one specific ability. It costs nine times as much: 360 points plus 9 times the maximum point value of traits granted. It's a major power, probably better-suited to godlike entities than to PCs.

As noted in Powers, the wise GM will rule that the advantages take effect for only one minute times the margin of the HT roll, but the recipient may buy them "for real" if they have enough unspent points. That way, the ability acts as a catalyst, not an infinite character-points generator.

[scc]

Originally Posted by Kromm

For one specific advantage (holy/unholy ability), GURPS Powers, p. 119, defines that as:

Affliction (Advantage, +10% per point of advantages; Extended Duration, Permanent, Irreversible, +300%) [40 + price of the advantages]

If you want to grant just about any holy/unholy ability, take Cosmic Power (p. B71) with Physical (+50%), Focus-Limited (Holy or Unholy), -10%, and Trait-Limited, Afflictions that grant permanent advantages (-50%). This can be shifted to become the previous Affliction for any holy/unholy ability, not just one specific ability. It costs nine times as much: 360 points plus 9 times the maximum point value of traits granted. It's a major power, probably better-suited to godlike entities than to PCs.

As noted in Powers, the wise GM will rule that the advantages take effect for only one minute times the margin of the HT roll, but the recipient may buy them "for real" if they have enough unspent points. That way, the ability acts as a catalyst, not an infinite character-points generator.

I'd assume that who ever your granting these abilities to your Allies, so how do the two Advantages interact? And it looks like once you have 9 or more it's a good deal.