[AtE] Black Powder vs Smokeless

[Anthony]

Might have something to do with getting it to burn in a proper way to actually propel a bullet, which means you want fairly precise control over burn rate. Black powder is incapable of detonation, so you can be a bit less careful.

[copeab]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I assumed that was a response to the electrical ignition discussion.

It indirectly made me think of the Volcanic (and some later firearms with similar ammo) but I wasn't suggesting an electrical ignition system for the rounds.

I do suppose you could step back to the earlier Rocket Ball ammo, which lacked a contained primer, and electrically ignite the powder, although you need reasons not to use cases (lack of sufficient metal or manufacturing facilities are two).

[acrosome]

TL;DR

Don't know if this was addressed, but we talked a lot about primers in this thread a while ago.

After page 10 or so it degenerates into fanboyism, though. You are warned.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by lwcamp

My understanding is that smokeless powder needs a blast wave in order to set it off.

No, it burns just fine if lit with a flame. This is why you need to store it properly in non-sparking containers, etc.

Source: Personal experience lighting the stuff.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

I still suspect that black powder is somehow easier to ignite as to my knowedge the required safety protocols are greater. It's probably complicated.

Black Powder, especially stuff that doesn't have the grains coating in graphite (modern large-grain black powder intended for blasting has the grains coated in graphite to make them safer, among other things), can build up quite a static charge if shaken for a while, as it might be while being transported, and if that discharges in a spark, you have a problem. It's also shock sensitive if not packed right, though not reliably (you can't expect it to go off when you want it to, just when you don't).

[swordtart]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Should work OK for black powder, but I'm not so confident a spark will set off smokeless. Electrically detonated explosive charges usually set off a primary explosive primer rather than try to set off the explosive directly.

Note that you do need to build the spark gap into the cartridge. Getting a spark out of a battery that will fit in a handgun means a fairly precise gap and a narrow point - expose it to a powder explosion and it is not going to be reusable! This seems likely to be a moderately fiddly bit of machining for each cartridge, and potentially a fragile one, so it's not handicraft production either.

I have seen someone making electrically detonated Pyros that used blackpowder. He used a match head that has a grove carefully scraped into it. Fine wire from a phone charger lead was laid into the grove and taped down. He then attached the ends of the thin wire to larger wires that would attach to a 9v battery. The thin wire had sufficient resistance to glow red, which ignited the match head that was buried in the black powder.

I could see that with a little ingenuity you could embed the match head and thin wire within the case of the cartridge and connect the thin wires to two electrically insulated parts of the case that make contact with external connectors within the gun.

Of course you need a supply of matches, but that may be less of an issue than real primers in even a post apocalypse setting.

[acrosome]

Originally Posted by swordtart

I have seen someone making electrically detonated Pyros that used blackpowder. He used a match head that has a grove carefully scraped into it. Fine wire from a phone charger lead was laid into the grove and taped down. He then attached the ends of the thin wire to larger wires that would attach to a 9v battery. The thin wire had sufficient resistance to glow red, which ignited the match head that was buried in the black powder...

Of course you need a supply of matches, but that may be less of an issue than real primers in even a post apocalypse setting.

You probably don't need the match head. The red hot wire alone would work to set off black powder. It doesn't require a pressure wave.

In fact, one of the ways to make an improvised electrical detonator- from that (in)famous US Army Improvised Munitions manual, section 6.1- is to use a light bulb filament to set off black powder.

Fun fact- this manual was on a bookshelf in Sid's room, in the animated movie Toy Story. TM 31-210.

I imagine that I'll now be on some watchlist for posting that link...

But it does make me nostalgic for my youth. I'd be in a federal SuperMax if I were a kid in 2018. The feds no longer have any sense of humor whatsoever regarding such youthful shenanigans.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by swordtart

Of course you need a supply of matches, but that may be less of an issue than real primers in even a post apocalypse setting.

Or.. phosphorus sulfide. Which is the component of a match that actually makes the fire.

Also known around this thread as... primer. ;)

[acrosome]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Or.. phosphorus sulfide. Which is the component of a match that actually makes the fire.

Also known around this thread as... primer. ;)

Wow. Armstrong's mixture? Points for thinking outside the box but NOT a good primer- too damned sensitive. :) You don't want everything in your bandoleer detonating when you trip and fall.

Fun times.

[Verjigorm]

The chemistry is fascinating, but beyond me. But, what about the mechanical parts? Smokeless powder is far more energetic than blackpowder, and weapons that can safely fire blackpowder may not be able to handle the higher pressures of smokeless, and definitely NEVER anywhere near the same amount of smokeless. If you don't have access to dependable good quality steel, smokeless powder can be really dangerous. Blackpowder on the other hand, you can get away with using a lo more materials to make your guns, ranging from common blackpipe for plumbing or forgewelded guns(really dangerous).

Also, the types of actions you can use change. Anything gas powered is right out if you're using blackpowder, while Blowback and Recoil operated firearms would work. This works as a upper bound to what sort of automatic firearms you can use: past pistol sized cartridges, blowback doesn't really work. Which is when you get into other variants of blowback designs, which can produce weapons like autocannons or machineguns(the MG42 was delayed rollback, as were the FAMAS and G3). Automatic blackpowder guns are also going to produce clouds of smoke. Which is kind of cool.