Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-16-2018, 05:09 PM   #11
malloyd
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Default Re: Need help creating and pricing modifiers to make a Devil's Deal advantage

I agree it's an Affliction build. The Affliction itself has an accessibility limitation (requires a verbal agreement). The trait afflicted depends on the details. If the bound party just wants to abide by it, then it's a Vow. If something horrible happens to him if he doesn't then it's whatever Disadvantage corresponds to the horrible thing, with a mitigator limitation (keep my word about this one deal, something like -80%).

I don't think Mind Control is usually involved at all, though it could be if you are compelled to do idiotic stuff to try to keep the deal when it's actually impossible for some reason (as opposed to making a good faith effort and offering compensation if you fail, which would be how you would honorably behave if you had a Vow).
__________________
--
MA Lloyd
malloyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2018, 06:39 PM   #12
hal
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
Default Re: Need help creating and pricing modifiers to make a Devil's Deal advantage

So - who has the power in reality? What POWERS the power? Is it Divine? Is it simply a feature of nosy little demons/imps/cherubs/angels/Intelligent Squirrels? Is it a Deity based power?

Why not ask yourself what specifically is this, who has the ability to enforce the "Deal" and whether or not it is internal or external to the characters.

Can it happen where a "Deal" is non-binding? In other words, can two people inside a pentagram make a deal and have it work? What happens if one is in a pentagram and the other is outside of it when they say "Deal"?a

In the reality you're trying to build - it sounds like someone offers a deal, nothing happens unless someone accepts it.

Now, here's a problem. "I would sell my teeth for a chance at that!" could invoke someone saying "DEAL!" right? Now, the other person who says "Deal" would say "you said chance, you didn't say how much of one" and the bargain is struck?

To me, this seems largely to be a deity based affliction in which both parties suffer some effect unless the deal offered is consumated. If this is "automatic", it sounds like either an enemy or a patron that is always there (no roll required). It also sounds like the individual doing the affliction is not all too limited if the affliction can be far reaching or inconsequential.


So, tell us MORE of what YOU think is involved before you go any further.

*teasing grin*
hal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2018, 09:39 PM   #13
Krillean
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Default Re: Need help creating and pricing modifiers to make a Devil's Deal advantage

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
So, tell us MORE of what YOU think is involved before you go any further.

*teasing grin*
With pleasure

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
So - who has the power in reality? What POWERS the power? Is it Divine? Is it simply a feature of nosy little demons/imps/cherubs/angels/Intelligent Squirrels? Is it a Deity based power?

Why not ask yourself what specifically is this, who has the ability to enforce the "Deal" and whether or not it is internal or external to the characters.
I might have to refer back to my DM to be sure about this but I believe it would be the character who has the power over the ability and to make the deal binding so I would say the power is Internal. There may be some greater demon that oversees the ability as there are factions of demons in his world but he hasn't necessarily said and all the other abilities are internally powered so I couldn't say for sure until I ask my DM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
Can it happen where a "Deal" is non-binding? In other words, can two people inside a pentagram make a deal and have it work? What happens if one is in a pentagram and the other is outside of it when they say "Deal"?
Partially, the deal would have to be with a Demon with this ability so yes deals can be non-binding unless the deal is made with one of these demons in which case it is always binding. That said the non-demon party does not necessarily know they have been bound to this deal, nor do they know that they have made a deal with a demon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
In the reality you're trying to build - it sounds like someone offers a deal, nothing happens unless someone accepts it.
Pretty much, unless the deal is either mutually created and agreed on or an offer is accepted then there is no binding. (I wish this was a world I was creating as a world in which all deals are binding sounds like an interesting setting to expand on; might have to do that later)

Quote:
Now, here's a problem. "I would sell my teeth for a chance at that!" could invoke someone saying "DEAL!" right? Now, the other person who says "Deal" would say "you said chance, you didn't say how much of one" and the bargain is struck?
Partially. Wordplay is definitely a part of the deal system, it is a deal with a devil after all, much like genies, they are going to find a way to cheat you out of your end of the deal. That said a deal cannot be forced on someone not making an offer. The way to explain this would be a Statement vs an Offer.

What you have listed is a vague statement, the character saying it is making an exaggerated comment and as such cannot become binding. There is no offer being made to the other party. For this to become binding the demon would have to say something like "I could offer you that" in which if the other character then accepts the binding would occur and the demon could easily manipulate such a vague deal. The offer here being the demon saying "I could offer you that" instead of the vague statement from the character.

An offer would be something directed at one of the two parties directly. An offer version of your example just requires it to be directed at the demon. "I would sell my teeth to you if you could get me a chance at that". Even if the character is joking here it is phrased as an offer. In this situation the demon could jump and say deal and catch the character in a binding deal.

So yes deals can be forced, but only as a response to an offer; not a statement. Yes wordplay can happen (and is encouraged on the end of the demon).

Hopefully that helps you get a better idea of what I'm going for.
Krillean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2018, 10:08 PM   #14
hal
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
Default Re: Need help creating and pricing modifiers to make a Devil's Deal advantage

So this "binding" only occurs when done with a specific individual or being.

So, what specifically is a demon in this universe? Is it a fallen angel? Is it a being from a realm other than that which humans inhabit? Are they believed in as Demonic, or are they "You made a deal with a demon? Right Mr. Jones, we have a nice comfortable padded room for you. Take these pills and everything will be all right Mr. Jones"?

I guess what I'm getting at is that if they are powerful beings who aren't human, and they have a hierarchy they belong to, would this hierarchy be deemed "Demonic"? If so, then it implies that the power itself is demonic (if a common characteristic of all demons). If it is demonic, can it be countered by the opposing force that is anti-demonic?

GURPS POWERS suggests that there are limitations to powers to the extent that they gain a -10% modifier for the cost. Are there areas in which the demon's powers are not extant? Can the binding/deal be resolved by appeal to a higher power?

By the by Krillean - when I went to send you a private message or email, I noted that you don't have that enabled. :(

My reason for asking is - if making a deal with a Demon can be done without the person knowing they were dealing with a demon, clearly, it can pass for human. Equally clearly, this is not the standard "Moral turpitude" or "Moral degenerate willingly offering something for which they know to be bad/evil/immoral. If the deal/binding can be countered in some way, then you'd invoke the -10% power discount for it being based on demonic power.

Can a demon lose this power? Is it absolute?

I'm trying not to draw upon a Judeo-Christian mythology here because I get the feeling it isn't strictly that. ROLEMASTER had the concept of Demons beyond the Pale. They're not demons as Christians might call them, but other-dimensional beings.

Last edited by hal; 11-16-2018 at 10:10 PM. Reason: added comment
hal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2018, 10:37 PM   #15
Krillean
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Default Re: Need help creating and pricing modifiers to make a Devil's Deal advantage

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
So, what specifically is a demon in this universe? Is it a fallen angel? Is it a being from a realm other than that which humans inhabit? Are they believed in as Demonic, or are they "You made a deal with a demon? Right Mr. Jones, we have a nice comfortable padded room for you. Take these pills and everything will be all right Mr. Jones"?
If I remember correctly demons are creatures that used to inhabit the world but something happened that caused them to retreat to another dimension. So your "Being from a realm other than that which humans inhabit" is correct. Demons in the world are basically folktales now. Some people truly believe they exist but they are few and far between; however, the people are still superstitious about it so if something is believed to be related to demons it is still shunned by the society as a whole.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
I guess what I'm getting at is that if they are powerful beings who aren't human, and they have a hierarchy they belong to, would this hierarchy be deemed "Demonic"? If so, then it implies that the power itself is demonic (if a common characteristic of all demons). If it is demonic, can it be countered by the opposing force that is anti-demonic?

GURPS POWERS suggests that there are limitations to powers to the extent that they gain a -10% modifier for the cost.
I will have to ask my DM about this, so far we have only really discussed the Demon end of this as we are playing as Demons and an opposing power really hasn't been mentioned and with the way it is set up it is possible there is no anti-demon force that would counter it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
By the by Krillean - when I went to send you a private message or email, I noted that you don't have that enabled. :(
Oh I didn't even know that had to be enabled. Made the account to post this, I think I enabled it now? No clue if I did it correctly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
Can a demon lose this power? Is it absolute?
Probably. The higher demons could probably take the power away and if there is an anti-demon force in the GM's world they would probably be able to negate the ability.
Krillean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2018, 11:42 PM   #16
Andreas
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Default Re: Need help creating and pricing modifiers to make a Devil's Deal advantage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
the only way is to take enough levels of Affliction to apply a penalty that nobody can overcome.
I don't think that works due to resistance rolls automatically succeeding if you roll a 3 regardless of how large the penalty is. A way to do it is to use Super Luck to ensure either that the target fail to resist.
Andreas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2018, 10:05 AM   #17
Kelly Pedersen
 
Kelly Pedersen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Saskatoon, SK, Canada
Default Re: Need help creating and pricing modifiers to make a Devil's Deal advantage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
I don't think that works due to resistance rolls automatically succeeding if you roll a 3 regardless of how large the penalty is.
Actually, that's not a rule. People get confused on this, because a roll of 3 is always a success on an attack, regardless of penalty, but other rolls don't have that rule. If your resistance score is 2 or lower, you simply can't succeed on the resistance roll (though since an enemy still has to succeed on their roll in a Quick Contest of resistance, you can hope they fail the roll, or use Luck if you've got it to make that more likely).
Kelly Pedersen is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:45 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.