[DF] Clerics

[HuManBing]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

Ares wasn't viewed as an Evil god

That's strange, I thought he was. He's portrayed as cowardly, boastful, and incompetent, even as he leads thousands of men to their doom - quite different from portrayals of Athena the other deity of war in Greek mythology.

[The_Nightwatch]

My mother used to teach Greek myths at the college level. She once remarked to me that Ares was portrayed in such a contradictory fashion (meaning contradictory from my point of view) because it reflected the ancient Greeks' view of war. So, no, I think rather than "evil" Ares was more about the effects of mass violence.

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

Ares wasn't viewed as an Evil god

Originally Posted by HuManBing

That's strange, I thought he was. He's portrayed as cowardly, boastful, and incompetent, even as he leads thousands of men to their doom - quite different from portrayals of Athena the other deity of war in Greek mythology.

The extremely sort answer is these portrayals you're speaking of are incomplete and misleading. However here is my quick and dirty take on this:

Ares wasn't viewed as a straightforward "evil god", because ancient Greek religion didn't have a really moral point of view, despite modern interpretations (the ritual point of view was more usual, instead). Also, there are many additional reasons for this phenomenon that puzzles moral mentalities: ancient religions are/were everything but streamlined, some contradictions were intentional and paradoxes were "koans" harboring divine mysteries. The current frame of mind, only concerned with technology, doesn't encompass anything of these thigns, and even refuses any possible meaning beyond the ones provided by . . . psychologists and other supposed "specialists" in the matter:

Originally Posted by The_Nightwatch

rather than "evil" Ares was more about the effects of mass violence.

That has impoverished enormously the understanding, while the same thing has spread enormously inapposite information. The current portrayal in current studies of Greek mythology's gods is too simplistic and unilateral, for making it someway coincident with the moral mental frame: instead, Ares could be salutary and disastrous at the same time from different points of view; Aphrodite wasn't only a love goddess, but a goddess of sacred sovereignty too . . . Athena was many things, including a fertility goddess and sometimes she was the Gorgon at the same time . . . Additionally, the sources of Greek mythology aren't exactly well conserved and gross distortions perpetrated by "profane" (=outsiders regarding the temple and the divine mysteries) litterateurs in the Classic and contemporary periods are noticeable. Any attempt of rationalize myths without sutable tools is futile and very misleading, and these tools aren't available today nor even in academic circles. After all, the gods and their myths were the area of expersite of the so-called "mystery cults". Religions as such -specially the "monotheistic" ones, are a different (but of course related) phenomenon, much more straightforward and simpler than the ancient spiritituality and culture of most earlier civilizations. Thinking about ancient mythologies from the mental frame of "monotheism" and morality (both are strongly linked), or "humanism" and morality (equally linked, too) is simply wrong. Nor even the goals and values of "polytheistic" and "monotheistic" cultures were exactly coincident . . . for not speaking of the meaning of symbols.

For instance, in an ancient spiritual tradition as Hinduism, a westerner man used to his own usual mentality (despite that mentality is now worldwide), could easily interpret the goddess Kali as a sort of demonic being (oops, look at there: Peshkali demons!). Of course there are always sects divergent from the orthodoxy (the right way of these things) worshipping in odd or even dangerous ways, but Kali isn't a demonic being but a manifestation of the Supreme Brahma, and worshipped as such; this is its proper meaning, and its figure conveys her own myths and esoteric doctrines and baggage, including some other different, lesser, but complementary meanings. And then, due the usual current point of view, this goddess has been transferred to the popular western pop culture as an evil being. Of course this sort of misunderstandings are "great" for magnates, politicians, christian missionaries and colonizers (colonialism still is here), for blaming diferent cultures as "devil-worshippers", justifying thus conquest, industrial slavery and ethnocide, for saying the least, in the "Third World" . . . So there are no real efforts to dispel the misunderstandings. Some of them even were fabricated purposely for furthering political goals.

With a "legacy" as this, people can think of situations as the "good" Norse god Odin crusading against the "evil" Hindu Kali and an involvement of mortal Holy Warriors in the mess as making some sort of sense . . . I find ludicrous the idea of different pantheons of "real world gods" fighting between themselves and being abusively labeled as "good" or "evil". That can be done as "pure" fantasy without any link to real world cultures, but I don't see any profit in increasing lack of knowledge and misunderstandings by making chessy approaches to real world religion through fantasy (yes, I'm aware of the box "Dungeon Fantasy vs. Reality" in DF 7, p. 5). Divine ambiguity was there for reasons, and eliminating it completely -as the moral point of view does- isn't faithful in any way to any mythology. Roleplaying can be, besides a recreation, a tool for education or for misinformation and distortion. Playing or toying with ideas produces results, intended or not.

I know this thread is about Dungeon Fantasy, but I've always seeing the same themes, the same concerns and misunderstandings everywhere, in serious games and in munchkin games equally. To raise arguments such as ". . . but this is DF! It's silly by definition!" for silencing toughts makes no sense for me; the same attitude -maybe a bit less loud, but still the same- is unfortunately usual while speaking of non-dungeon fantasy, too, or sometimes even in the context of other genres. In any case, many "specific DF threads" can be usable for Fantasy in a broader sense.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by HuManBing

That's strange, I thought he was. He's portrayed as cowardly, boastful, and incompetent, even as he leads thousands of men to their doom - quite different from portrayals of Athena the other deity of war in Greek mythology.

He's portrayed that way by Athenian poets and playwrights who flattered their own patron deity while denigrating the patron of the foes. But the Spartans and the Thebans had a very different perspective on the god. However if I was going to divvy up the Olympian gods into Good and Evil for DF yeah I'd probably go with Ares being an Evil Dood. Although there are other alternatives. For example Moloch was used by the Phoenicians as a title/name for Kronos, and they supposedly sacrificed children as part of their Kronos worship. Cybele was another foreign deity with an iffy reputation. Then there's Typhon... Medusa probably started out as a rival deity whose religion lost out to Athena...

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

He's portrayed that way by Athenian poets and playwrights who flattered their own patron deity while denigrating the patron of the foes. But the Spartans and the Thebans had a very different perspective on the god. However if I was going to divvy up the Olympian gods into Good and Evil for DF yeah I'd probably go with Ares being an Evil Dood. Although there are other alternatives. For example Moloch was used by the Phoenicians as a title/name for Kronos, and they supposedly sacrificed children as part of their Kronos worship.

I guess the point I was tryingto make is that Ares would likely be on the evil end of the spectrum, not entirely evil but tending towards evil. And he and his cult would probably be antagonists of the more benevolent deities.