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Old 04-30-2011, 09:30 PM   #41
jeff_wilson
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Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

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Originally Posted by Langy View Post
That's how Mind Control works, so it's obviously a 'no'.
A chance to say no = no ability to say no? I'm no sure I can argue with logic like that.

Torture, duress, Mind Control, and brainwashing, can all boil down to NPCs making Will rolls to say, "no"...why are some okay and some not okay?
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Old 04-30-2011, 09:49 PM   #42
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Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

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Originally Posted by jeff_wilson View Post
A chance to say no = no ability to say no? I'm no sure I can argue with logic like that.

Torture, duress, Mind Control, and brainwashing, can all boil down to NPCs making Will rolls to say, "no"...why are some okay and some not okay?
Unless they can freely say no I'd say that it doesn't work. If there's a mechanical reason they have to say yes then it doesn't count. Again, it's not the physical act of saying "yes", it's about them being mentally willing.
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Old 04-30-2011, 10:50 PM   #43
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Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

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Originally Posted by Novembermike View Post
Unless they can freely say no I'd say that it doesn't work. If there's a mechanical reason they have to say yes then it doesn't count. Again, it's not the physical act of saying "yes", it's about them being mentally willing.
Bu you are not saying how "freely" and "have to" are distinguished. When both involve contests of will, how do we tell?
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Old 04-30-2011, 10:57 PM   #44
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Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

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Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire View Post
There has never been a human choice made without that choice being subjected to some form of threat, reward, intimidation, pressure or force.
Okay, I'm really curious about this. What party has used threats, rewards, intimidation, pressure or force to coerce me into choosing to post this response? Because I can't think of anyone that would care enough, but would really like to know who to blame for my every action. Or at least the actions with undesirable consequences.

Unless you count curiosity as coercion. Is it even possible to coerce myself? Assuming I don't have a split personality that is.
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Old 04-30-2011, 11:57 PM   #45
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Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

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Okay, I'm really curious about this. What party has used threats, rewards, intimidation, pressure or force to coerce me into choosing to post this response? Because I can't think of anyone that would care enough, but would really like to know who to blame for my every action. Or at least the actions with undesirable consequences.

Unless you count curiosity as coercion. Is it even possible to coerce myself? Assuming I don't have a split personality that is.
I think Sunny is referring to socialization; people are conditioned to behave a certain way at first by their parents and siblings, then by teachers and peers, etc at first by immediate reward of food, contact, and praise, then by coporeal punishment or deprivation, then time out and peer pressure, etc. As the motivations become progressively more remote, people feel they are more in control in general, and feel freer to make their own choices, but there are still ultimately consequences to sufficiently unpopular behavior that are under the immediate control of other people, so you can say, "People do X from fear of punishment for doing otherwise."

You can of course decide for yourself that you want to do X from your principles and moral convictions rather than fear of punishment and use that basis to justify your actions, but then I can say, "You are espousing principles and morals from fear of the social punishment for being treated like someone without principles or morals."

But I would never disrespect a person's ethical stance that way , except that I fear being denigrated for contributing to the denial that people act to avoid punishment.
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Old 05-01-2011, 03:41 AM   #46
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Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

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Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire View Post
Magic, that which is testing against the rule, is an infallible cosmic awareness both world- and time- spanning.

Allowing it to be otherwise merely means that there never will be an unwilling sacrifice and that we can discard the rules coming out in MH3, as I can work out the ritual for any effect to any degree of precision that you care to specify as being required to weasel my way past the "willing sacrifice" requirement.

Assuming that either magic or the casters are stupid isn't going to go anywhere useful. :)
Well, yes. If you want it to be that way...

Personally, I feel that raises 'magic' to a status that I would prefer to reserve to gods.

And on the other hand there's the thought that Wish spells couldn't possibly work with anything less than total cosmic consciousness being invoked.

And on the third tentacle, there's the thought 'I'm invoking cosmic consciousness every time I use my Clean spell or light a candle?'
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Old 05-01-2011, 04:32 AM   #47
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Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

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Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty View Post
Remember, the willing sacrificer must understand what he's doing! He has to know what your spell will do, and know that his sacrificed FP or HP are to assist the spell. Thus, any trickery will mostly be about your motives.


Why? Coercion is fine. There's a simple litmus test: Does the subject have the ability to say "no"? If so, then it's a choice. Mind Control removes that ability.

Mind, I do rather like the idea (as an optional rule) of having coercion automatically add a quirk to the spell. I may steal that one for my own games. :)
Let's see, is a character who failed their selfless (6) self control roll able to say no, when he's asked to serve as a sacrifice to power the ritual that will save her city/family/country/etc? He's mechanically to say no. Same for the character with fanatism, or many other mental disadvantages.

Personally, I must say that the victim's decision must not come from a direct supernatural influence (so, if the witch has Charisma +15 granted by a magical effect, then yeah, it can fast talk/influence the victim into sacrifice. If he uses Mind Control (via advantage or spell) then no. Drugs remove the will from the subject would also not work. It all comes to wherever the will behind the decision is the sacrifice's (even if it's influenced by outside forces) or someone else's.

Back on the legal front, if someone, at gunpoint, requested that you give them your wallet, after you exit an ATM, he would still be stealing, even if you were actually giving it to him "out of your own will". Magic would consider that you gave it to him by choice (you could decide if you preferred to test his nerve, or see if he had bullets in that gun, or simply give it to him. It's a risk/reward situation), while for justice, it's armed robbery.

Me, I like the idea of willing sacrifices adding their will (not GURPS Will, but in the conversational English sense) to the casting, on top of what the actual action of the sacrifice gives you (that is probably a simple cause-effect thing, you sacrifice someone, you get energy). It's ripe for drama. It also means that evil witches are likely to have cults where the integrands are subjected to mundane (with perhaps a slight magical boost, from, for example, magically increased charisma and/or appearance) brainwashing.
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Old 05-01-2011, 07:08 AM   #48
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Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

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Originally Posted by RyanW View Post
Generally, I would assume that only accepting because one failed a Will or HT roll to refuse implies that the subject is unwilling. Mostly because I don't want addicts to become familiars. "You want a hit. I want a demon summoning."
And I think turning people into addicts so that you can use them as magical batteries is a wonderfully naughty thing to do as a naughty witch. Idea stolen. :)
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Old 05-01-2011, 07:13 AM   #49
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Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

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Originally Posted by Michael Cule View Post
Well, yes. If you want it to be that way...

Personally, I feel that raises 'magic' to a status that I would prefer to reserve to gods.
It is an all-knowing all-powerful force that doesn't (usually) interfere with the normal functioning of the world without being invited. IRL, IME, casting a spell (under a lot of traditions) is just a particularly ritualistic method of prayer.

Quote:
And on the other hand there's the thought that Wish spells couldn't possibly work with anything less than total cosmic consciousness being invoked.
Or divinations.

Quote:
And on the third tentacle, there's the thought 'I'm invoking cosmic consciousness every time I use my Clean spell or light a candle?'
Which makes it deliciously ironic when you think about it. You are evoking the universe, requesting aid in changing the world in accordance with your will and desire, getting it ... and you used that ultimate cosmic power to do the dishes. *grins*
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Old 05-01-2011, 07:15 AM   #50
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Default Re: [MH] [RPM] Willing Sacrifice & Mind Control

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Originally Posted by jeff_wilson View Post
I think Sunny is referring to socialization; people are conditioned to behave a certain way at first by their parents and siblings, then by teachers and peers, etc at first by immediate reward of food, contact, and praise, then by coporeal punishment or deprivation, then time out and peer pressure, etc. As the motivations become progressively more remote, people feel they are more in control in general, and feel freer to make their own choices, but there are still ultimately consequences to sufficiently unpopular behavior that are under the immediate control of other people, so you can say, "People do X from fear of punishment for doing otherwise."

You can of course decide for yourself that you want to do X from your principles and moral convictions rather than fear of punishment and use that basis to justify your actions, but then I can say, "You are espousing principles and morals from fear of the social punishment for being treated like someone without principles or morals."

But I would never disrespect a person's ethical stance that way , except that I fear being denigrated for contributing to the denial that people act to avoid punishment.
As an accurate-enough-for-conversation-purposes, this works. Thanks!
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