[DF] Cleric Spell Lists - Where at?

[sir_pudding]

Have you finished this? I'm really curious about the results.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Have you finished this? I'm really curious about the results.

Ugh. Not even close.

There will be X number of Phases:

Phase 1: Compile the list of all lists (and the spells therein).
Phase 1b: Recheck list to ensure lists are accurate.

Phase 2: Raw numbers (how many spells each list has, how many per PI level, how many on average over all the lists, etc).

Phase 3: Lists of what spells have largely ended up where

Phase 4: Decide how to continue forward, IE: Make more Phases.



I'm about half-way through Phase 1b... but as long as 1b checks out, then Phase 2 is done.

As for Phase 3 and 4... I'm not sure if I want to go with a 'weighted' approach; All spells get a number from 2 to -2 to determine how close to "Good" or "Evil" they are and thus where individual lists will fall out therein (frex, is Fire a "Good" list? Or is it "Neutral"? Or is it "Evil"*), or a "feels" like it approach to deciding what lists fits where**. At the moment every Clerical list except Evil, Elder, Chaos, Order, Druid and Far East Druid are labeled as "Good" (with the Clerical list from DF 1 as my Canonical Good).

Evil from DF 3 is my Canonical "Evil". That list has only Evil and Elder on it, so far.

Neutral has Druid, Far East Druid, Chaos, and Order... though I strongly suspect Order would end up as 'Good" if it went with a pure 'weighted' approach (they have a lot of Healing spells) and Chaos remaining as Neutral.



* It has a lot of "attack" type spells (minimum one per level), but also a lot of healing and defense spells. I suspect it would end up in the "Good" list, or at worst just barely nudged into the Neutral lists (but if so, only because of the larger than 'average' number of purely attack spells).

** And therefor what sort of spells should be put where.

[Pragmatic]

To the editors of DF, was there some "rule of thumb" in how to balance the Shaman's summonable ally against the larger spell list of a Cleric, and the Necromancer's allies against the larger spell list of a Mage?

[Phil Masters]

Frankly, the GURPS points system shoulders the heavy load of game balance so far as I'm concerned. I just built those character types so they could all do something interesting, and so that they each had a distinctive flavour rather than being boringly omnicompetent.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

I just built those character types so they could all do something interesting, and so that they each had a distinctive flavour rather than being boringly omnicompetent.

I figured as much. It's decent... my only "issue"* is how many overlapping spell choices there were... and how many have broadened/shortened spell lists**.


For the record the 'generic' Good list has 119 spells. Generic Evil has 118. This feels significant to me.




* Which I strongly suspect is deliberate choice. I'm in the process (Phase 1b!) of figuring out how many (and which) spells were repeated in each list.

** I suspect that the expanded lists feature an awful lot of 'dead weight'*** spells while the shortened ones have their combat utility increased (why yes Fire, I am looking at you).

For instance City with Tell Time and Strike Barren. I can see uses for them... but they are a lot more niche in a standard DF game than say... Fireball. Again, I suspect this is on purpose (also they have more use in a "City" based game, which would fit the theme of the list).



Sidenote; this is only coming about because I wish to make a "Knowledge/Secrets" list... and so need to know what spells "have to be on it" and roughly how much play I have in fluffing it out and how many "dead weight" spells I should tack on. Like Tell Time, a great "Knowledge" dead weight spell.

[evileeyore]

Oh. Since Phil is here...

Is it okay if I post the raw numbers in here when I'm done with Phase 1b? This would just be how many spells each list has, how many each Power Investure level has, etc. Not actual lists of spells.

Though the spell list names (Agriculture, Healing, etc) would be included.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

is how many overlapping spell choices there were..

I'm especially interested in this. Which spells are on several lists? Which spells are only on one or two?

Sidenote; this is only coming about because I wish to make a "Knowledge/Secrets" list... and so need to know what spells "have to be on it" and roughly how much play I have in fluffing it out and how many "dead weight" spells I should tack on. Like Tell Time, a great "Knowledge" dead weight spell.

I have a draft (incomplete) about clerics of knowledge, myself.

FWIW, for order and chaos I just eyeballed the existing lists, (I think I did count the total number of spells in each though).

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I'm especially interested in this. Which spells are on several lists? Which spells are only on one or two?

I'm gonna be staight here, that's not something I'm likely to put in a forum post. Two reasons:

1 - If this really pulls together well, I will aim at trying to get a Pyramid article out of it. Not that I've ever managed that before...
2 - It feels too much like posting the lists (even in partial form) out here in the wild.

FWIW, for order and chaos I just eyeballed the existing lists, (I think I did count the total number of spells in each though).

Really?

Order has 109 spells to Canonical Good's 119 and pretty much has all 5 of the "must have healing spell's" so it looked to me like it was built following some set of rules.

Chaos on the other hand looks like you took the Druid list into a dark alley and mugged it.

[Phil Masters]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

I figured as much. It's decent... my only "issue"* is how many overlapping spell choices there were... and how many have broadened/shortened spell lists**.

You're looking for deep and measured significance where it doesn't exist. I eyeballed this stuff. Kromm then passed it, so either he's happy with that approach, or I have supernaturally good eyeballs.

(And believe me, only one of my eyeballs is even mediocre.)

Originally Posted by evileeyore

For instance City with Tell Time and Strike Barren. I can see uses for them... but they are a lot more niche in a standard DF game than say... Fireball. Again, I suspect this is on purpose (also they have more use in a "City" based game, which would fit the theme of the list).

You're looking at this the wrong way round. I put spells on those lists because I thought that they more or less fitted the clerics in question's theme, then went over them asking myself "Is this list sufficiently adequately useful for a Dungeon Fantasy character?" and tweaked things accordingly.

I didn't excise stuff that was appropriate but largely useless, because I care about flavour and style much, much more than I give a wet slap about pointless numerical symmetry. The only real "balancing" effect that I had in mind was the realisation that clerics who got to chuck fire or lightning around would be a bit too popular with the munchkins and would intrude on the wizards' niche protection, so I cut back on their classic heals-and-buffs resources, with the general intent of making them less useful as "classic clerics".

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Oh. Since Phil is here...

Is it okay if I post the raw numbers in here when I'm done with Phase 1b?

If you're asking about copyright concerns, that's a question for SJGames, not for me. I just do work for hire.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

You're looking for deep and measured significance where it doesn't exist.

It is ever the human condition to find patterns where none exist.

I had seen enough of a pattern to suspect one existed (even if it is just "Does this make a halfway decent DF dungeoneering Cleric"... that only means there is a group of spells that you (and Kromm) think are pretty much "go to" spells for that purpose. Even if it was subconscious - even sir_pudding has some of them on his Order and Chaos lists).

I eyeballed this stuff. Kromm then passed it, so either he's happy with that approach, or I have supernaturally good eyeballs.

I'm willing to blame the mind behind the eyeballs for any genius that slipped onto the page.

You're looking at this the wrong way round. I put spells on those lists because I thought that they more or less fitted the clerics in question's theme, then went over them asking myself "Is this list sufficiently adequately useful for a Dungeon Fantasy character?" and tweaked things accordingly.

That's kinda what I thought.

I figured it was a "I want these spells because they fit the theme" and then you went back and put in all the spells "necessary" and then trimmed to fit or not based on how many were "cruft" type spells (Tell Time and Strike barren are kinda crufty for a dungeon).

That your 'eyeballing it' speaks to me as 'intelligent design' probably either says "You're more proficient at design and know what's needed to such an extent it's practically to a set of rules" or "evileeyore is list obsessed and finds them where they don't exist".

I'm leaning to a mix of the two.

I didn't excise stuff that was appropriate but largely useless, because I care about flavour and style much, much more than I give a wet slap about pointless numerical symmetry.

Sure. My only real point in doing this is I find it a lot easier if I have a fence to work within.

I this case, if I build a spell list that ends up with over 175 spells, I might think it's just smurfy where others might think it "stomps on Wizard's utility a bit much". So having a set of guide posts to follow (the largest canon list is 143 spells, the smallest about 90) makes it easier to realize "Yeah, I need to cut 20 of those".

The only real "balancing" effect that I had in mind was the realisation that clerics who got to chuck fire or lightning around would be a bit too popular with the munchkins and would intrude on the wizards' niche protection, so I cut back on their classic heals-and-buffs resources, with the general intent of making them less useful as "classic clerics".

Right.

But even so you've ended up with around 15 spells that show up on a lot (most) of the lists. I'm calling these spells "The Canon Good Core". About 5-7 of them are on all the lists (it may only be 5 for Fire specifically).

If you're asking about copyright concerns, that's a question for SJGames, not for me. I just do work for hire.

Ah, good call. I'll ping Kromm.