Simplified Jumping?

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

For dealing with encumbrance penalties, I just apply the fraction to jump distances instead of move for determining jump more easily in the middle of combat or other high speed situation. It's not perfect, but it's as easy as applying it to move and I don't see the results being that bad.

That's the standard way of doing it (box, B352).

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by Rupert

That's the standard way of doing it (box, B352).

My bad, I thought Encumbrance affected Move and then Jump is derived from lowered Move.

Now that I see that box, it is technically optional to have encumbrance affect jump. If you wanted simplicity with jumping, you could just ignore it. It's a bit cinematic but sounds very helpful in play.

[Taneli]

Seems to me that broad jump of Basic Move /2 yards and high jump of Basic Move /3 feet are pretty close to the actual values, within Basic Move 5 to 8 the error for broad jump is at most 7.7%, and for high jump 15.79%, both on the low side (the estimate gives lower amount than the Basic Set formulas).

And you can replace either ST/4 or Jumping/2 for the Basic Move in the estimate formula.

I would suggest rounding those both estimates to one decimal place.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Taneli

Seems to me that broad jump of Basic Move /2 yards and high jump of Basic Move /3 feet are pretty close to the actual values, within Basic Move 5 to 8 the error for broad jump is at most 7.7%, and for high jump 15.79%, both on the low side (the estimate gives lower amount than the Basic Set formulas).

And you can replace either ST/4 or Jumping/2 for the Basic Move in the estimate formula.

I would suggest rounding those both estimates to one decimal place.

Basic Move isn't bad to use, since Jumping is a type of move anyway. I don't really like using ST, though, as I get images of leaping elephants. ST doesn't usually usually surpass move until you get >20, and those are usually large animals that don't have a jump out of proportion to move.

[Kromm]

We moved away from always using ST for jumps in Fourth Edition because it seemed . . . odd. The "strength" that matters for jumping is best represented by Basic Move, and isn't the same as the strength you use for standing up with heavy loads (ST + Lifting ST), or for kicking people (ST + Striking ST).

There are good reasons why high-jump champions are sometimes also runners, but rarely karate or TKD champs, and just about never weightlifters. While there are exceptions across the board, on average, jumping and running use similar dynamics, enough that being amazing at one just about always makes you pretty good at the other. By contrast, people who are amazing at one of track events, kicking-oriented martial arts, and lifting are rather rarely outstanding at the others.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by naloth

Basic Move isn't bad to use, since Jumping is a type of move anyway. I don't really like using ST, though, as I get images of leaping elephants. ST doesn't usually usually surpass move until you get >20, and those are usually large animals that don't have a jump out of proportion to move.

ST/4 can only be used if you are strong in excess of your weight. It's particularly for supers and other 'much stronger than you look' characters. My actual issue with it is that the new jump seems irrelevant of how much stronger you are. I'm okay with it if only because Basic Move and SM also don't seem related (A faerie and giant have the same BM without further modifiers).

[naloth]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

ST/4 can only be used if you are strong in excess of your weight. It's particularly for supers and other 'much stronger than you look' characters.

Meh, players will come up with explanations for weird and improbable things. It's up to GM to make sure it's something reasonable for that game world. Generally for the reasons that Kromm put above, I don't see ST as associated with leaping any more than it would be for hand clap windstorms or ground pounding shockwaves. It's justification to buy a power, but not justification for a free power.

My actual issue with it is that the new jump seems irrelevant of how much stronger you are. I'm okay with it if only because Basic Move and SM also don't seem related (A faerie and giant have the same BM without further modifiers).

That's often a feature of a buy what you get system. Growth and Shrinking could use a rewrite and simplification, though. If nothing else, it would make them easier to use in an Affliction.

ST isn't really directly related to weight anyway. In game terms it's more effectively the ST you can use after accounting for your weight (which you can see by how HP is guesstimated for objects, people, and how extra weight no longer counts as encumbrance - you just decrease your move and ST).

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by naloth

Meh, players will come up with explanations for weird and improbable things. It's up to GM to make sure it's something reasonable for that game world. Generally for the reasons that Kromm put above, I don't see ST as associated with leaping any more than it would be for hand clap windstorms or ground pounding shockwaves. It's justification to buy a power, but not justification for a free power.

I absolutely agree. In fact, I like you last sentence a lot and might change the optional rule to "if you follow this situation, you can buy BM up to ST/4 if it otherwise would be limited".

Originally Posted by naloth

That's often a feature of a buy what you get system. Growth and Shrinking could use a rewrite and simplification, though. If nothing else, it would make them easier to use in an Affliction.

Makes perfect sense. What I would really like is if Growth worked like a reverse Shrinking where it multiplied everything the way Shrinking divides everything. Because of my new ST costs I use, I could see Growth becoming a flat 50pt trait. No matter how you look at it, though, there's some room for abuse.

Originally Posted by naloth

ST isn't really directly related to weight anyway. In game terms it's more effectively the ST you can use after accounting for your weight (which you can see by how HP is guesstimated for objects, people, and how extra weight no longer counts as encumbrance - you just decrease your move and ST).

Yeah, a faerie and a giant both with ST10 would be, from in universe perspectives', of different strengths because the giant has more mass it moves and why anything can theoretically have ST0. As for the extra weight thing, I'm not sure I like the rule, considering there could be a disad for being weighed down by some fraction/multiple of your BL that compares to Sessile, but that's neither here nor there.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

I absolutely agree. In fact, I like you last sentence a lot and might change the optional rule to "if you follow this situation, you can buy BM up to ST/4 if it otherwise would be limited".

I typically don't have such caps (I run Supers or variants the bulk of the time). With Jumping you do have to be a bit more careful because of how it potentially can interact with slams (it's instant speed), but there are ways to fix that too.

Makes perfect sense. What I would really like is if Growth worked like a reverse Shrinking where it multiplied everything the way Shrinking divides everything. Because of my new ST costs I use, I could see Growth becoming a flat 50pt trait. No matter how you look at it, though, there's some room for abuse.

What do you use for ST costs? I don't believe I've seen it.

Shrinking seems a bit punitive by default. Consider the 6' human shrinking (SM0) to 2' (cat size or SM-3). At 1/3 the size, the human has lower ST (3 rather than 4) and only 1/6th the move. Rats would be even worse. It's comically entertaining, but not very tempting as a power. From a point accounting standpoint, since SM is a 0 point feature, it's usually better to buy a useful Alternate Form that's small. Becoming a cat is often a better advantage than becoming a tiny, gimped human.

I've never had anyone use Shrinking without enhancements to remove the limits on speed, damage, and so forth.

Growth is the opposite problem since you buy everything piecemeal. It makes building afflictions that improve SM by a step or two rather annoying.

As for the extra weight thing, I'm not sure I like the rule, considering there could be a disad for being weighed down by some fraction/multiple of your BL that compares to Sessile, but that's neither here nor there.

That was part of being overweight in 3e. It didn't come up often (we did have a portly knight at one point in a 3e fantasy game), but it help represent density control powers.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Kromm

The "strength" that matters for jumping is best represented by Basic Move,
and isn't the same as the strength you use for standing up with heavy loads (ST + Lifting ST),
or for kicking people (ST + Striking ST).

There are good reasons why high-jump champions are sometimes also runners, but rarely karate or TKD champs

I think that has something to do with TKD emphasizing high kicks front kicks (hip flexor strength) or arcing kicks (adductor/abductor/hip rotation strength) rather than emulating the downward thrust of a jump/sprint which uses the strong posterior chain (glutes/hamstrings) for hip extension..

Pretty much the only kicks which would emulate that properly would be "Back Kick" or "Stamp Kick" or "Trample".

So maybe somehow we could make those better (more damaging) by giving them a damage bonus related to Basic Move?

I know IRL people train the back kick for power, not just for people who sneak up behind them. They'll actually change facing (expose side/back) sacrificing awareness/accuracy for power.

Originally Posted by Kromm

people who are amazing at one of track events, kicking-oriented martial arts, and lifting are rather rarely outstanding at the others.

We do see some fighters doing weight training to build strength though... I remember doing TKD there was a squat rack there, and a lot of fight camps do "hill sprints" or "sled pushes" or "parachute wind sprints" and similar. A lot of that might just be to build cardio/vascular/pulmonary health but I think some of it would have to do with training high-twitch muscle fibers to fire.