Quick Question: Snakes and Grappling

Stripe · 08-09-2014, 02:45 PM

Quick question. Rules as written and canonically speaking.

I'm on a very tight time budget as we're playing in a couple hours and I still have planning to do. ;-)

Making sure I'm not overlooking something in my great haste. Say a creature using the Vermiform hit location table, p. B553, with no manipulators and no legs wants to grapple an opponent. Can someone go through the rules real fast for me?

The Creature has Constriction Attack, p. 43. It states: "To use this ability, you must first successfully grapple your intended victim."

Page B370 states: "You must have at least one empty hand."

It has No Manipulators (p. B145).

So, can it just not grapple?

Rules quotes and page references greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

Refplace · 08-09-2014, 02:53 PM

Technical Grappling really has you covered if you have it.
But even basic lets a snake grapple, in fact some have Constrcition Attack which lets them do it really well.
Most will bite for the initial grab then wrap but if the target is asleep or slow enough they can wrap without the needed bite.
Remember you can grapple with your legs if your human.

mr beer · 08-09-2014, 02:55 PM

I don't know how RAW is written so that this is not a problem for you, but since snakes are clearly in mind when Constriction was written, I am not going to worry about it. Your snake can make this attack.

EDIT

B p458 has a python with Vermiform and Constriction so this is clearly fine.

Stripe · 08-09-2014, 03:00 PM

Google tells me Sir Pudding suggested a Binding Melee attack since Constriction Attack in no way grants the ability to grapple. I copy/pasted the rules from Basic, p. 43.

I don't have Technical Grappling, though I have dozens of GURPS books. That's just not in the wallet for me.

Stripe · 08-09-2014, 03:02 PM

I guess I could just rule as though it's grappling with one hand . . . Not RAW and thus it leaves small, niggling questions. See the thread I linked for a couple examples.

sir_pudding · 08-09-2014, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stripe

Google tells me Sir Pudding suggested a Binding Melee attack since Constriction Attack in no way grants the ability to grapple. I copy/pasted the rules from Basic, p. 43.

I don't have Technical Grappling, though I have dozens of GURPS books. That's just not in the wallet for me.

I don't think that a reading of GURPS rules that makes constrictor snakes impossible is good one. Martial Arts definitely has rules for biting grapples and constriction. I can't look it up for you right now but you ought to be able to find "bites" and "constriction" in the index.

Stripe · 08-09-2014, 03:15 PM

Agreed, and the quickest and easiest way around this is to say it's grappling with one hand. I'm fine with it for right now, but . . .

I'll look up the MA rules as well.

Thanks again!

sir_pudding · 08-09-2014, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stripe

Agreed, and the quickest and easiest way around this is to say it's grappling with one hand. I'm fine with it for right now, but . . .

If you are using the rules from Martial Arts, this is wrong.

See Martial Arts p. 116

Quote:

Exception: Constriction Attack (p. B43) and Double-
Jointed (p. B56) together enable grapples, takedowns, pins,
chokes, locks, and breaking free at no penalty, using the
torso – just like a python. Such attempts are equivalent to
two-handed. You must learn body-only techniques separately,
like those for teeth.

Refplace · 08-09-2014, 03:24 PM

Ok, did a quick answer in case you ddint have time for me to look it up.
Here are some references.
Basic p. 370 under Choke or Strangle
You must normally use
your hands, and can’t do anything else
with them (e.g., parry) while holding
on – but if you have the Constriction
Attack advantage (p. 43), you can use
your body instead.

Basic p. 451 Animals in combat
Most animals initiate
combat with a grapple or a slam, followed
by an attempt to crush the foe
or tear him to pieces in close combat.

Martial Arts p. 115 teeth Box
You can either nip and let
go or hold on and grapple your victim in addition to injuring
him. Either is an attack that takes full hit location
penalties – not halved for grappling – and inflicts thrust-1
crushing damage.

Martial Arts p. 116 No Fine Maniuplators
No Fine Manipulators: You must “hug” to grapple,
which is clumsy. Grapples, pins, and takedowns receive no
penalty, but grappling techniques

Ok that should be enough.

Stripe · 08-09-2014, 03:39 PM

Okay! Now we're talking! Great! There we go. Thanks!

08-09-2014, 02:45 PM	#1
Stripe Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Midwest, USA	Quick Question: Snakes and Grappling Quick question. Rules as written and canonically speaking. I'm on a very tight time budget as we're playing in a couple hours and I still have planning to do. ;-) Making sure I'm not overlooking something in my great haste. Say a creature using the Vermiform hit location table, p. B553, with no manipulators and no legs wants to grapple an opponent. Can someone go through the rules real fast for me? The Creature has Constriction Attack, p. 43. It states: "To use this ability, you must first successfully grapple your intended victim." Page B370 states: "You must have at least one empty hand." It has No Manipulators (p. B145). So, can it just not grapple? Rules quotes and page references greatly appreciated! Thanks! __________________ . "How the heck am I supposed to justify that whatever I feel like doing at any particular moment is 'in character' if I can't say 'I'm chaotic evil!'"? —Jeff Freeman

08-09-2014, 02:53 PM	#2
Refplace Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Yukon, OK	Re: Quick Question: Snakes and Grappling Technical Grappling really has you covered if you have it. But even basic lets a snake grapple, in fact some have Constrcition Attack which lets them do it really well. Most will bite for the initial grab then wrap but if the target is asleep or slow enough they can wrap without the needed bite. Remember you can grapple with your legs if your human.

08-09-2014, 02:55 PM	#3
mr beer Join Date: Mar 2013	Re: Quick Question: Snakes and Grappling I don't know how RAW is written so that this is not a problem for you, but since snakes are clearly in mind when Constriction was written, I am not going to worry about it. Your snake can make this attack. EDIT B p458 has a python with Vermiform and Constriction so this is clearly fine. Last edited by mr beer; 08-09-2014 at 02:58 PM.

08-09-2014, 03:00 PM	#4
Stripe Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Midwest, USA	Re: Quick Question: Snakes and Grappling Google tells me Sir Pudding suggested a Binding Melee attack since Constriction Attack in no way grants the ability to grapple. I copy/pasted the rules from Basic, p. 43. I don't have Technical Grappling, though I have dozens of GURPS books. That's just not in the wallet for me. __________________ . "How the heck am I supposed to justify that whatever I feel like doing at any particular moment is 'in character' if I can't say 'I'm chaotic evil!'"? —Jeff Freeman

08-09-2014, 03:02 PM	#5
Stripe Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Midwest, USA	Re: Quick Question: Snakes and Grappling I guess I could just rule as though it's grappling with one hand . . . Not RAW and thus it leaves small, niggling questions. See the thread I linked for a couple examples. __________________ . "How the heck am I supposed to justify that whatever I feel like doing at any particular moment is 'in character' if I can't say 'I'm chaotic evil!'"? —Jeff Freeman

08-09-2014, 03:15 PM	#7
Stripe Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Midwest, USA	Re: Quick Question: Snakes and Grappling Agreed, and the quickest and easiest way around this is to say it's grappling with one hand. I'm fine with it for right now, but . . . I'll look up the MA rules as well. Thanks again! __________________ . "How the heck am I supposed to justify that whatever I feel like doing at any particular moment is 'in character' if I can't say 'I'm chaotic evil!'"? —Jeff Freeman

08-09-2014, 03:24 PM	#9
Refplace Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Yukon, OK	Re: Quick Question: Snakes and Grappling Ok, did a quick answer in case you ddint have time for me to look it up. Here are some references. Basic p. 370 under Choke or Strangle You must normally use your hands, and can’t do anything else with them (e.g., parry) while holding on – but if you have the Constriction Attack advantage (p. 43), you can use your body instead. Basic p. 451 Animals in combat Most animals initiate combat with a grapple or a slam, followed by an attempt to crush the foe or tear him to pieces in close combat. Martial Arts p. 115 teeth Box You can either nip and let go or hold on and grapple your victim in addition to injuring him. Either is an attack that takes full hit location penalties – not halved for grappling – and inflicts thrust-1 crushing damage. Martial Arts p. 116 No Fine Maniuplators No Fine Manipulators: You must “hug” to grapple, which is clumsy. Grapples, pins, and takedowns receive no penalty, but grappling techniques Ok that should be enough.

08-09-2014, 03:39 PM	#10
Stripe Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Midwest, USA	Re: Quick Question: Snakes and Grappling Okay! Now we're talking! Great! There we go. Thanks! __________________ . "How the heck am I supposed to justify that whatever I feel like doing at any particular moment is 'in character' if I can't say 'I'm chaotic evil!'"? —Jeff Freeman