Ritual Path Magic: Meta-Magic vs. Overstacking

[vitruvian]

I'm curious as to the interaction of two of the rules under Ritual Path Magic, introduced in Monster Hunters 1.

First, there's the Meta-Magic modifier:

Meta-Magic:

Dispelling or altering magic requires additional energy equal to the cost of the original spell.

Then there's the rule that any particular subject cannot be under the influence of more than one ritual with the same Effect, e.g., Greater Control Mind, and that if two rituals of the same type are cast on someone, then:

In such a case, the spell which took more energy to cast remains, while the other fizzles without effect.

So, this says to me that if your enemy has cast a Greater Control Mind (or Transform Mind, if that's deemed more appropriate) effect on a small town that gave everybody there (that didn't resist, of course) Fanaticism (Enemy), and you want to replace that with Fanaticism (You) or just remove the mental disadvantage from them and free their minds, you can just cast the same effect while being sure to expend somewhat more energy than the other guy, and your enemy's spell will fizzle before it's expiration date while yours takes effect, without any need to use the Meta-Magic modifier. Correct?

If so, it would seem to make the very expensive Meta-Magic modifier only desirable when you don't possess the requisite skill in the Path used to create the Effect you want to overpower, or your Path of Magic skill is just a whole lot higher than the other one, or gathering enough energy is just not a big problem for you in the specific case. Otherwise, 'overstacking' is almost always going to be more efficient, even if it involves picking some minor or harmless effect of the same type as the spell to be defeated, because the real object is getting rid of the prior spell.

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Yep. See the "Extra Energy" modifier where that use is mentioned.

[RyanW]

Yes, in the case of a mind control spell, it is easier to take control and then release the victim (or not) than to destroy the spell outright.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by RyanW

Yes, in the case of a mind control spell, it is easier to take control and then release the victim (or not) than to destroy the spell outright.

Or Restore Mind, per RPK's earlier post, doesn't need to use Meta-Magic in order to restore somebody from a Control or Transform. Still, freeing the populace from your opponent's control and putting them under your own control in one fell swoop has a certain charm to it.

Again, though, I'm wondering about the implications of the Area modifier. Seems like freeing or taking over just one of the townspeople should be cheaper than freeing or taking over everybody, but overstacking doesn't work unless you spend more energy than the original spell, which presumably includes energy costs for Area, so it would work out the same. I might house rule it so that you need to exceed the energy for the original spell, exclusive of costs for Area beyond what you're doing with the new spell, except maybe for Path of Magic spells since you don't want to be able to so easily take down strong wards.

[PK]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

If so, it would seem to make the very expensive Meta-Magic modifier only desirable when you don't possess the requisite skill in the Path used to create the Effect you want to overpower, or your Path of Magic skill is just a whole lot higher than the other one, or gathering enough energy is just not a big problem for you in the specific case.

Or when your goal is to alter the spell, not merely dispel it.

Or when you're trying to remove all taint of magic from a person or item.

Or when you're affecting many subjects and want a guarantee that it'll work. For example, let's say 1,000 people were hit by Lesser Control Mind to add a Major Delusion. If you were to cast a spell to hit all 1,000 people with Lesser Control Mind to add +1 Per (a more expensive spell), odds are that many of those 1,000 people would successfully resist. (Remember that unless the target is aware and willing, he automatically attempts to resist!) If you were to use Lesser Destroy Magic to target the spell directly, then there is no resistance roll (the spell is targeting another spell, not a living subject) and everyone is freed.

In other words, there are actually plenty of times when it's worth using the meta-magic modifier. That said, if it is reasonable to simply "displace" the spell in your situation, that's always more cost-effective, yes.

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Again, though, I'm wondering about the implications of the Area modifier. Seems like freeing or taking over just one of the townspeople should be cheaper than freeing or taking over everybody, but overstacking doesn't work unless you spend more energy than the original spell, which presumably includes energy costs for Area, so it would work out the same.

That's absolutely correct, and intentional. If someone is able to enslave the entire country, then the spell he used to do it with is powerful magic, and shouldn't be easily broken. There is, and there is supposed to be, a difference between trying to overcome a spell that affected a nation and trying to overcome one that affected only one person -- even if you are only trying to free the one person.

However, note that you have workarounds. For example, if you want to free just one of the townspeople, just use Lesser Restore Mind with Altered Traits (Remove Fanaticism (You) [-15]) for a net 4 + 15 energy. You're not dispelling the magic; you're simply undoing the effect by using a counter-effect. And Restore Mind is a different effect than Control Mind, so there are no stacking issues.