The Illyrian Sport

[Verjigorm]

Let's just say that if he's the eldest son, he has a villainous brother or uncle who had him declared dead.

Works for me. Part of the plot line is for the PCs to help assist Decius. The first session will kick-off with decius and the Illyrian war. Decius and a small band of legionaires and auxilia scout out Illyrians, Decius infiltrates an Illyrian town, and the romans capture some ships. I use some pre-gen characters to get the fellas ready for what I expect from them in regard to characters, and then the world goes through a couple years to the gallic invasion of 225 BC.

During this, Decius is going to serve as a Principe, and he should be roughly 25-26(the age is flexible, I'm again, not aware of what the age requirements are), and he's often going to do "special operations", which will involve the PCs. Sure, there will be the epic battles, but man, you can't run one of those every week.

Depending on how the initial runs work, I may be able to sustain the game and get into the fun: politics. But that's a lofty goal for me.

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by Icelander

I don't think that's quite accurate. The arms and armour of Roman legionaries often passed from father to son and were quite expensive. And the Gauls encountered most often were the warrior elite, given how much their culture made of warfare and the fact that their serfs and slaves would not leave their lands.

Would there be plenty of Cheap weapons owned by people that were not dedicated warriors? Certainly. But a Roman legionary and a Gallic warrior (as opposed to serfs) would not carry those weapons.

I thought the Roman army of this time(220 BC) would be a citizen levy? The men levied are landowning, and not the urban poor. I was under the impression that age and social standing had a measure in what your gear look like: hastati fought as hastati because they didn't have the armor of the princepes because they couldn't afford it.

Certainly the quality differs, but I think it stands to reason that the majority of the gallic warriors would not be rich, and would not be armored. Bravery in warfare was a prime method for improving your social standing, but iron for mail and swords are expensive. And not everyone is "warrior elite".

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

I thought the Roman army of this time(220 BC) would be a citizen levy? The men levied are landowning, and not the urban poor. I was under the impression that age and social standing had a measure in what your gear look like: hastati fought as hastati because they didn't have the armor of the princepes because they couldn't afford it.

Citizens, yes, but only among those citizens rich enough to own the appropriate gear.

If you want real citizen levy, look the light troops that fought alongside the legions.

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Certainly the quality differs, but I think it stands to reason that the majority of the gallic warriors would not be rich, and would not be armored. Bravery in warfare was a prime method for improving your social standing, but iron for mail and swords are expensive. And not everyone is "warrior elite".

A lot of Gauls would not be the warrior elite, yes. But those Gauls would not necessarily be among those invading Roman lands.

Gallic warriors did not sully themselves with acriculture or other work. They were exclusively warriors and usually landowners as well.

[capnq]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

I'm inspired by both the video for Beat It by Michael Jackson, but also from an old conan story featuring Red Sonja. The core principles of the game are that the two participants lash their right hands together, and use a knife in their left. The game is variously played to first blood, first cry or death, depending on the severity of the wager, and how much alcohol has been consumed.

A question that's rising for me in this is how to reflect the bound right hands? The sport is variously practiced with different customs regarding binding, from grasped hands, tightly wrapped in a tunic or cloat, to belts or cords tied aroudn the wrist and gripped tightly in the fist. In anycase, a core technique involved is to pull and push the opponent off balance using the right hand.

One issue of Cerebus the Aardvark included a parody of that Red Sonja story. Cerebus was challenged to such a duel; local tradition was that the combatants held opposite corners of a handkerchief in their teeth. (Summarized from memory, because I can't remember which box my copy is stored in.)

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

During this, Decius is going to serve as a Principe, and he should be roughly 25-26(the age is flexible, I'm again, not aware of what the age requirements are), and he's often going to do "special operations", which will involve the PCs. Sure, there will be the epic battles, but man, you can't run one of those every week.

The age is probably about right. Nathan Rosenstein suggests that during the Republic most Romans spent much of their late teens and early twenties as soldiers. By their late twenties, it would be time to marry and start a family (well-off men usually married around age 25 to women about 10 years younger), and military service would probably become less frequent. So probably a typical veles would be a teenager, a typical hastatus or princeps in their early twenties, and most of the triarii older. In an emergency like the Second Punic war, of course, they probably conscripted anyone they could get. Polybius doesn't mention any formal age requirements for different units, just a minimum and maximum age at which a citizen was liable for conscription.

[Verjigorm]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Citizens, yes, but only among those citizens rich enough to own the appropriate gear.

If you want real citizen levy, look the light troops that fought alongside the legions.

Right, but if we're looking at a military that relies on it's own citizens furnishing their arms, we're going to look at how much wealth a roman has to contibute towards his arms. Basic set gives us a roughl guideline of 20% of his wealth in movable assets suitable for adventuring, and also establishs that the starting wealth is $750 for a normal person. This sets our limit on military gear to be $150, which isn't going to get much more than a couple of javelins and a small shield. Which, coincides with the Velites who serve in the legion.

A Hastus has a property value of roughly 2500-5000 Drachmae, and a Drachmae or Denarii a day is about the living expense for a poor person. A poor person has a yearloy CoL of $3600, which gives us a close $5 per denarii or Drachmae. So the first rank of heavy infantry, the Hastati have a minimuim property requirement of almost $12K. Kromm has previously hinted that the 80% of your wealth you lose for being a "settled" adventurer is multiplied, and I believe he threw out an 8-12 figure there.

This math isn't very solid, but it and other factors lead me to think that a roman Velite and Hastus are likely Status 0, with either normal or comfortable wealth. The Principes and Triarii are likely Wealthy or Very Wealthy, and Status 0(plebian?), with Triarii enjoying social regard or a reputation. The Princepes and Triarii are going to have about $750 for adventure supplies, such as armor, shield and non-cheap sword. The spear is almost an after thought in terms of expense.

So in every legion, there are atleast 2,200 nominal members who are going to be unable to afford good gear. Thus, almost half of a given legion is likely to be equipped with cheap weaponry andf minimal armor. That's a given, and I think it's likely that the pilum was a cheap weapon from the start(you don't throw away expensive weapons), and it's "innovation" emerged as a result of that cheapness.

A lot of Gauls would not be the warrior elite, yes. But those Gauls would not necessarily be among those invading Roman lands.

Gallic warriors did not sully themselves with acriculture or other work. They were exclusively warriors and usually landowners as well.

I have a difficult time in believing that the Gallic hordes of the time were composed of pure warrior aristocrats who all come equipped with swords, shields and mail. I have a hard time believing that the Gallic civilization(remarkable as it was) was able to maintain more than 10% of it's population as non-farmers. That means that a modest horde of 5000 men is going to require almost 50000 people supporting it.

Now, granted, I'm not as knowledgable of the Celts as I am of the early germans, so to some degree I'm really using the Germans as a guide line: but I think the majority of the gallic warriors were farmers who occassionally participated in wars to back up the warrior elite.

It is certainly true that the Gauls/Celts, whatever, maintained a much better equipped army than the Germans, but I think it makes sense: the germans living in close proximity to the roman world were living in a dense forest that resisted the efforts of man vigorously. Gaul, by comparison, was much more cultivated.

And thanks Polydamus. You guys are going to be central to this campaign. I'm hoping to actually get a gaming group going with this.

[Icelander]

I have not major quibbles with your assumptions, really.

Yes, when you invade the Gallic states, you'll see a lot of farmers too poor to afford swors but quite knacky with spears. But the people who go forth to seek loot are often going to be warrior elites with 'adventuring' lifestyles, meaning 100% in adventuring gear.

[Verjigorm]

How do roman naming schemes work? Like Decius Curtius <insert> Illyricus? Apparently his gens is Curtius( i don't know what this means, actually), and Illyricus is a nickname, not official, and seen as an insult, which is how I envisoned this character: he get's angry when his Roman heritage is disparaged(i.e. being called the Illyrian).

One thing I want to emphasis in this campaign is the personal swordmanship of the roman soldier, which created a standard for wester nexcellence that has always been sought after. There's a couple of mythological stories of roman single combat, and the various laws and regulations regarding the legions lead me to think that the Romans really relied on individual swordsmen. Additional support is provided by the tradition of wearing only a left greave, and a left foot leading posture, as evidenced by trajans column, and the passing nature of medieval combat, which could be described as "derivitive" from the legion's training.

This all makes sense though, which is what I'm begining to appreciate about the romans.

The Velites are the sons of farmers: they're headstrong, but not very reliable, and their fathers can't afford to equip them with anything more than some light javelins and a shield. They learn how to hurl spears at a good distance and marching, as well as scouting and the like. I imagine that a Velite who proved himself in battle would likely be sponsered by older men and gifted with the equipment of a Hastati. But for a few years they get valuable training.

This leads me to something important: ancient sources describe light troops using running throws and various throwing aids with their javiians. How do we model these?

I'm thinking about a technique for Thrown Spear, giving a +1 damage bonus. What are reasonable drawbacks for this?

[Agemegos]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

How do roman naming schemes work?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_naming_conventions

[davidtmoore]

Originally Posted by capnq

One issue of Cerebus the Aardvark included a parody of that Red Sonja story. Cerebus was challenged to such a duel; local tradition was that the combatants held opposite corners of a handkerchief in their teeth. (Summarized from memory, because I can't remember which box my copy is stored in.)

It was a two-foot length of rope/silk/something. The gag was, the barbarian was six feet tall, and our favourite short, grey, fuzzy little psychopath is three feet tall. So when they used the prescribed length, he dangled off the ground.