Human-octopus barter

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

I'm pretty sure they could trade better fibers than seaweed. Rust-resistant metal tools. A smart octopus could do a lot with a screwdriver.

Screwdriver would help with scavenging too.

Originally Posted by The Colonel

Pottery might be surprisingly useful, how about cooked food?
Anything, really, that takes heat to manufacture.
Also, things that require a non-blending environment, so products of chemistry and what have you.

Part of the problem might well be the initial struggle to persuade the humans that you are a) capable of trading with them and b) not more use as calamari.

Pottery is good. Crab traps, storage. Meat/fish should keep a good long time in the ocean if you can stop anything else from eating it first.

Originally Posted by thrash

Couple of clarifying questions:

(1) Is this first contact, or later on when the trade has had a chance to develop?

(2) How far post-apocalypse are we? Years, decades, generations, centuries, millennia?

In the case of first contact, it might be useful to think in terms of reciprocal theft: what could you steal from a hut on the shore (assuming it was close enough to reach without drying out), and what could you leave in its place?

1) First contact, and that's pretty much where trade is at so far.

2) generations ranging to maybe a century or two.

Originally Posted by Daigoro

A spear gun would probably be handy.

Pretty coloured beads and rocks, and some kind of fixant for his sculptures?

But to expand on thrash's #2, what sort of tech is generally available?

~TL 5 in GURPS terms; they haven't the population or resource base to support more. Advanced in areas that need less infrastructure, behind in areas that need more.

Originally Posted by William

Vodka.



--Down Among the Sticks and Bones, Seanan McGuire

I am slightly joking, but, you know, distillation probably isn't easy down there, as a previous poster pointed out with respect to other chemistry.

I didn't read those books for some reason, now I have to go and do so.

Originally Posted by RyanW

The sculpting thing makes me think it might appreciate objects of beauty. Maybe not anything the humans think of as particularly beautiful.

Originally Posted by tanksoldier

The problem would be that all indications are that an octopus’s mental processes are so different from human that subjective definitions may not be the same: art, music, sculpture. Like Odo from Deepspace 9 sculpture may be appreciated in a tactile rather than visual fashion, for example.

Textured stuff of various sorts would be good probably.

A brisk trade may exist in scavenged glass, metal and seafood in return for worked metals, glassware and fiber like hemp.

That's the expected endpoint.

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

Aromatics or whatever you call something that makes the sea water "smell" nice to them.
They may love cinnamon sticks, for example.

Ooh, good thought. I have no idea what sort of things might be good, but I don't think any research has been done on that topic so I can just make it up.

Originally Posted by Bruno

Artistic/decorative pieces:

Waterproof pigments paints dyes whatever: ways to apply lasting color to things while under water. Dyes will enjoy UV protection that they don't get above water, but suffer from, well, water, as well as salt and oceanic bacteria, so they'll likely have different colourfast problems.

Ways to apply lasting scents/tastes to things, or just plain old flavor enhancers / spices.

Rock sugar, in small waterproof containers/wrappers. Rock sugar instead of granulated sugar because it will dissolve slower in the water and thus be easier to work with. That said, I have no idea if octopi can taste "carbohydraty goodness" - cats can't, as an example.

I can't find any research on that one either, but I'm guessing they can't.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

What do the post-apocalyptic descendants of the civilisation that once lived on shore have to trade with you in exchange for salvaging things from sunken ships and swamped cities?

Prettier rocks? Differently flavored fresh water fish? The ability to float really big rocks to a spot they fall on your hated neighbor's corral?

[RyanW]

Food. If he has any sort of goals, not having to seek out food is more time to pursue them.

For the humans, giving him more free time is also giving him more time to work for them.

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Artistic/decorative pieces:

Waterproof pigments paints dyes whatever: ways to apply lasting color to things while under water. Dyes will enjoy UV protection that they don't get above water, but suffer from, well, water, as well as salt and oceanic bacteria, so they'll likely have different colourfast problems.

Ways to apply lasting scents/tastes to things, or just plain old flavor enhancers / spices.

Rock sugar, in small waterproof containers/wrappers. Rock sugar instead of granulated sugar because it will dissolve slower in the water and thus be easier to work with. That said, I have no idea if octopi can taste "carbohydraty goodness" - cats can't, as an example.

I actually question that. Maybe they don't taste it the way we do, but I've seen my tomcat lick the grass for a long time after someone spilled some sweet salad dressing, for ex. He licked up every drop of it. I once caught my she-cat licking at a spot on my shirt where some candy had stained it, too.

Maybe the mechanism is different, but I'm not at all sure cats can't enjoy sweet tastes at all.

[Flyndaran]

I was doubtful initially too. But they literally don't have a functional gene for the sweet receptors. I wonder which came first; their lack of sweet tasting or their hypercarnivore diet.

Interestingly, giant pandas lost the ability to taste savory/umami. I wonder the same about them being of the carnivora order but losing the ability to taste that mostly meat specific flavor.

When I think of chocolate, I think sweet treat... but obviously moles exist that aren't sweet at all, so my preconceptions are not correct for everyone that likes chocolate, for example.

Also quite a few people will eat dirt and literal non-foods, so it shouldn't be inconceivable for some cats to eat weird things.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Prettier rocks? Differently flavored fresh water fish? The ability to float really big rocks to a spot they fall on your hated neighbor's corral?

Yeah. If they're sapient, they're almost certainly going to want to kill others of their own kind in effective and innovative ways.

Boats that act as reverse submarines for them to bombard enemy octo-cities.

Plastic items are probably common in modern post-apoc settings. But while there's lots of pollution in the oceans, most of it has been broken down into small "useless" objects, I think.

[tanksoldier]

But they literally don't have a functional gene for the sweet receptors

...but that raises the question of whether they perceive certain flavors differently than we do.

There's a scene in The Sword in the Stone where Wart is turned into a bird and eats a mouse or something... stating that it tastes fruity.

Humans associate certain flavors positively and negatively... animals probably do the same. Cats probably have their equivalent of "oh, candy!" even if it tastes nothing like candy to a human.

So, the trick would be discovering what's "oh, candy" for an octopus....

[adm]

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

I actually question that. Maybe they don't taste it the way we do, but I've seen my tomcat lick the grass for a long time after someone spilled some sweet salad dressing, for ex. He licked up every drop of it.

How much oil, or other fat was in the salad dressing?

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

I once caught my she-cat licking at a spot on my shirt where some candy had stained it, too. ...

What sort of candy was it? Catnip is a member of the mint family.

[Flyndaran]

Quick googling leads to studies showing rather marked differences in what does and does not taste bitter to cats. Saccharine doesn't taste bitter to them, not sweet either, but not bitter like it does to us.

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by adm

How much oil, or other fat was in the salad dressing?

I don't recall. It was sweet-honey-mustard, I do remember that.

What sort of candy was it? Catnip is a member of the mint family.

Chocolate.