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Old 02-21-2018, 01:17 PM   #1
Jareth Valar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Default Would like some help with our group

OK, my GM is starting a (mostly/quasi) realistic based modern FBI game soon. (For those that have read some of my other threads, not the uber-official product only GM. That game fell through....YEAY!...lol). We were all making characters with the limits she put forth: Starting attribute cap of 14, skill cap of 16 (without seriously solid reasoning). We are also using "Know Your Own Strength " rules (Pyramid 3-83, pg. 16; Thanks Kromm!) and most of the guidelines from the Real World People & Character post by Kromm and others. The game will be a supernatural based x-files styled game where the characters are larger than life, but not full action movie hero level...yet.

Now for the help asked.

One character is former military and strongman competitor (not winner or even top 10, but competitor). St 14, IQ 11, DX 11, HT 14, Will 11 now (was 14; lost dependent wife, lowered will to represent and compensate points), Lifting 14. Watching Born Strong on Netflix really gave us an idea into his pre-FBI routine, but we would like help figuring out where the modifiers for some of the events in this video (Arnold Schwarzenegger Classic) and Strongest Man competitions. The Lifting guidelines in the core book are a bit...vague. Where would this character have stood at that time? What would it take to do these events (BLx**+EE+Lifting skill as an example)? What could he have lifted? and how the heck can anyone 1 arm lift 300 lbs over their head....more than once by these rules?

Character 2 is boy genius and martial artist ST 12, DX 12, IQ 14, HT 13, HP 14, FP 15, Karate and Karate Art 14, Judo and Judo Art 14, Criminology 16, Occultism 16. Wanted him to have Reputation with the Martial Arts community as a competitor. How would he stack up? Not MMA, more traditional Wushu and Karate tournaments. Taking the movie Best of the Best, would these numbers jive with that level of competition? (we thing possible, but would like some outside input) If not, national champion? Regional champion? State? Local show-off?

Character 3 is the daughter of a Russian expat gymnast and Chinese computer programmer, ST 10, DX 14, IQ 12, HT 11 Many computer related skills at 12-14 not Computer Hacking, GM feels too cinematic). She wants to have been software designer. What skill would this be, Computer Programming, Professional Skill (Software Designer)?

BTW, my GM is not using cinematic skills and trying to keep things more grounded. I know our characters are a bit high for a "realistic" campaign, but were made before we all found and talked about the "Real World People" thread. GM kind of liked the idea of where our characters fit into that design criteria, so we kept them where they were.

Any help would be appreciated, especially on PC 1 and PC 2.

Thanks in advance.
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Old 02-21-2018, 03:11 PM   #2
mr beer
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Default Re: Would like some help with our group

GURPS lifting does not play nice with specific real world lifting feats and expectations.

FWIW my opinion is that world class strongmen are around 4x stronger than a normal human...I'd give them ST over 16, Lift ST +2 and Lifting skill and move on. Your guy should have Lift ST because strongmen definitely train and use it. One or two levels is enough. If he was national level competitor I'd make him ST 15 as well.

Again this is just my opinion. I'm comfortable with the notion that real humans exist who have GURPS ST 20 but others disagree and think GURPS ST 15 should be a real world cap.
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Old 02-21-2018, 03:38 PM   #3
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Would like some help with our group

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jareth Valar View Post
She wants to have been software designer. What skill would this be, Computer Programming, Professional Skill (Software Designer)?
Yep, Computer Programming.

If you want her to have led a team, you might have a Professional Skill (say, "Project Management") for color, but that's about estimating times and scheduling and organizing assignments for large projects. (Programming is no longer a solo project for your basement, if indeed it ever was; real work takes teams, which means management. Cinematic Hollywood hackers, on the other hand, do their best work alone with just their laptop and beverage :)

Back in the 70s, "design" and "coding" were treated as different things to be done by different specialists, but these days, really only apprentice programmers get handed completely designed tasks to be coded, and few programmers learn just by apprenticeship any more. A big team will usually have an "architect" that does high level design, and little coding other than just to keep their hand in, but that's more a matter of focusing the assignments than different skills. Occasionally, you'll run across project managers that don't have the Programming skill at all, but that's relatively unusual.
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Old 02-21-2018, 03:42 PM   #4
Refplace
 
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Default Re: Would like some help with our group

Extra Effort should be allowed for the Weight Lifting even if not for combat.
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Old 02-21-2018, 04:20 PM   #5
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Default Re: Would like some help with our group

Anaraxes is almost right, but there are standard skills for project management. The primary skill is either Administration, if what's important is scheduling and resource management, or Leadership, if what's important is motivating and resolving conflicts. A really good project manager would have points in both.
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Old 02-21-2018, 06:06 PM   #6
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: Would like some help with our group

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
Anaraxes is almost right, but there are standard skills for project management.
Well, that's true; GURPS already has perfectly good skills for project management, so there's no need to invent one. Thanks for the correction.
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Old 02-21-2018, 07:13 PM   #7
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Default Re: Would like some help with our group

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Occasionally, you'll run across project managers that don't have the Programming skill at all, but that's relatively unusual.
My career path must be really weird, because of the last 5-6 project managers I've worked with, I think only two of them had written programs for pay at any point in their careers, and none of them recently.

Project management is a different skill set than programming, and is not usually a technical job. Like Whswhs said, it's primarily Administration in GURPS terms, with various other social skills being plausible. Leadership, Detect Lies to recognize when your programmers are lying to you, Fast-Talk to pass lies onto upper management or the programmers, Diplomacy to coax people into doing sensible things and sometimes a little Law or Savoir-Faire are more common in my experience than any notable skill in Computer Programming.

On the original questions:
1 handed lift is BLx2, so you either need a BL of 150 (ST 19), a BL of 120 and a Lifting roll at -2 (ST 18), a BL of 100 and a Lifting roll at -5 (ST 17), or a BL of 80 and a Lifting Roll at -9 (ST 16). That's using KYOS. I haven't watched the movie, but the idea that at least some of the weightlifters have ST 15, Lifting ST 1, and Lifting-17 so they can perform at 100% over their normal BL for a single lift about 25% of the time seems reasonable.

PC1 can routinely lift 100 lbs over his hand with one hand. With extra effort in a competition, he can take a -3 penalty and succeed about 25% of the time, letting him lift 130 lbs. At his peak (with Will 14), he could have taken another -3 penalty and lifted 160 lbs in competition.

PC2 is really, really good for a hobbyist, but has fairly typical skills for a professional who makes his living at a dangerous profession. I think that puts him at good enough to make a living as a full time martial artist, but probably not good enough to make a national team for the Olympics. Best in a large town, one of the best in a small city is where I'd put him, with each +1 in skill raising him up one level of city to state to region to nation. That would put national champions at skill-18, and the Best of the Best at about skill-20 or so.
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Old 02-21-2018, 07:21 PM   #8
Jareth Valar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Default Re: Would like some help with our group

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr beer View Post
GURPS lifting does not play nice with specific real world lifting feats and expectations.

FWIW my opinion is that world class strongmen are around 4x stronger than a normal human...I'd give them ST over 16, Lift ST +2 and Lifting skill and move on. Your guy should have Lift ST because strongmen definitely train and use it. One or two levels is enough. If he was national level competitor I'd make him ST 15 as well.

Again this is just my opinion. I'm comfortable with the notion that real humans exist who have GURPS ST 20 but others disagree and think GURPS ST 15 should be a real world cap.
Well over 16 isn't possible for humans in the article, but 16 if BL 80, so same as regular 20. But thanks
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Old 02-21-2018, 07:30 PM   #9
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Default Re: Would like some help with our group

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
My career path must be really weird, because of the last 5-6 project managers I've worked with, I think only two of them had written programs for pay at any point in their careers, and none of them recently.
I have worked in both situations.
A real programming shop would likely be headed by a former programmer who showed leadership and was promoted up. But other companies might have someone appointed to run a team or department that had little or no experience.
I would generally prefer the former but the Leadership and Administration skills are the most important. A competent leader will learn about the vaguiers of the task, buta great programmer may easily be a lousy boss.
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My GURPS fan contribution and blog:
REFPLace GURPS Landing Page
My List of GURPS You Tube videos (plus a few other useful items)
My GURPS Wiki entries
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Old 02-21-2018, 08:43 PM   #10
Jareth Valar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Default Re: Would like some help with our group

OK, I thought posting the links was a goot idea, but realized there was one thing we got from somewhere else, and not everyone would want to shuffle through a 9 page dead thread. So, I reposted some relevant bits that are being used in our game.

Also, PC3 has 2 ranks of Computer Wizard Talent and points in those skills as well as Current Affairs (Tech) and Administration 12, if that helps.

First, I know our character will stand out quite a bit compared to these representations, but that's what the GM wanted, so...

This might help bring our guidelines a bit more into focus...I hope....maybe....er...OK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
I'd use these guidelines:

ATTRIBUTES

* Most people have ST, DX, IQ, HT, Will, and Per at 10; a Basic Speed of 5.00; and a Basic Move of 5.

* If an ordinary Joe is stronger, more agile, smarter, healthier, stronger-willed, or more perceptive than average, odds are good that he has an 11 instead of a 10. If his edge is so great that his friends talk about it, he might rate a 13. People in the middle are at 12.

* If an ordinary Joe reacts more quickly than average, he probably has Basic Speed 5.25. If he runs more quickly, he might rate Basic Move 6.

* I would seriously think about rating greater apparent competency using skills, not attributes. A really good hunter probably has all of Guns, Stealth, and Tracking at Attribute+1 or perhaps +2, and that sets him above his pals with only one or two of those skills at Attribute level. He almost certainly doesn't have DX 12 and Per 12!

* If an ordinary Joe is weaker, clumsier, duller, less healthy, weaker-willed, or less perceptive than average, he likely has a 9 instead of a 10. If his lack is so great that his friends talk about it behind his back, he might rate a 7. People in the middle are at 8. Likewise, if he reacts less quickly than average, he might have Basic Speed 4.75. If he can't keep up on the run, he probably has Basic Move 4.

* Don't mistake Incompetence at a skill for low attributes! Every workplace has some poor guy who -- let's face it -- sucks. My money is on him having Incompetence at a needed skill, not DX 7 or IQ 8.

ADVANTAGES AND DISADVANTAGES

* Play physical and mental advantages by ear, but note that those that come in levels rarely go past one level for ordinary folks. In general, few ordinary humans have a non-social advantage worth 15 points or more, and most would be lucky to have one worth 5 points. Plenty of people have good-sized lists of 1- and 2-point advantages, though -- an hour less sleep here, slightly better hearing there, etc.

* Play mental disadvantages by ear, too. Those that come in levels rarely go past one level. Those with self-control numbers will mostly be at 15 if the flaw is a "tendency," or 12 if the flaw annoys or worries others. Save 9 for people who need help to live a productive life, and 6 for felons and committed lunatics. Mental disads rarely go past -5 points for productive folks, -10 for absolute eccentrics. Everything else is quirks.

* Social advantages and disadvantages, and physical disadvantages, are big exceptions. They are what they are. Someone really is President, and has Administrative Rank 8. Some poor souls really are Dead Broke. And plenty of people have bad eyesight or are overweight -- and unfortunately, lots of folks are deaf, have MS, etc.

SKILLS

* Most people have their skills at Attribute+0 level. Their job skills, dedicated hobbies, etc. will be at Attribute+2. Few ordinary citizens will go past that level without intensive, military-style training or a lifetime dedication to study. I'd hazard to say most workers hit Attribute+2 and stop learning their job skills thanks to a lack of challenges.

* That said, most people will have Attribute-2 to Attribute level at many odd skills, picked up over their lifespan. You'd be surprised how many people know Morse code, can ride a bike, can shoot a gun, etc. at least well enough to be better than default.

* The "exceptions" who seem very skilled are usually operating at +4 to +5 for routine situations. If you have a good idea of someone's skill -- say, you can measure it on a shooting range or through a classroom test -- subtract 4 or 5 from that score to get their actual "adventure-useful" level.

* Don't mistake "I did this once" for "I have this skill." Doing something once is only a step above seeing someone else do it on TV. At best, it justifies having a default roll. People have defaults because they grew up seeing others do something, watched mass media, and maybe had a hands-on experience once on that trip to Mexico. Less-fortunate souls just don't get a default. Take me: I've shot a couple of times, so I have a Guns default, but I didn't spend the 200 hours on the range needed to justify having Guns skill. I've taken two classical history courses, so I have a History default in that area, but I didn't spend anything like 200 hours on it to justify the skill.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
That's definitely skewed. GURPS IQ rates all kinds of things that real-world IQ doesn't: memory, sanity, basic perceptiveness and willpower, etc. At best, I'd use:
GURPS IQ = 10 + (Real-World IQ - 100)/20

So an IQ 120 type might rate an 11, a real rocket scientist with IQ 180 might rate a 14.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorry, can't remember OP
All training amounts assume a relatively hard worker, with greater stat(=attribute+talent) generally corresponding to greater dedication, and an Average or Hard skill.

Skill 4-5: untrained - possibly a quick lesson
Example: a normal person picking up a sword or writing a story.
Typical: stat 9-11, 0 points

Skill 6-7: beginner - at least a one-day course, possibly a few weeks, an easy skill, or an untalented person giving the skill a serious try.
Example: a normal person using a gun after a day's training, or driving a car after their mandatory lessons.
Typical: stat 9-11, 0-1 points

Skill 8-9: enthusiast - a couple of university courses, a talented beginner, or someone inept with substantial training. Those with a below-average stat won't often go beyond this level, due to self-selection.
Example: a normal man with several years of martial arts classes under his belt, a dedicated fanfic writer, a typical college student in their minor, or a highly talented beginner.
Typical: stat 9-12, 0-2 points

Skill 10-11: amateur - significant time spent; less promising employees will be here after their training (degree/diploma/apprenticeship); extreme talent with a little training
Example: major skills of a B university or 1-year apprenticeship graduate, main skills of most soldiers.
Typical: stat 10-13, 1-4 points

Skill 12-13: professional - years of study and practice for most people, significant time even for the talented; more promising employees will be here after their training. Substantial time invested even for the most talented.
Example: major skills of an A graduate, professional skills of most workers in skilled fields, main skills of experienced soldiers.
Typical: stat 10-14, 2-12 points

Skill 14-15: expert - decades of effort for most people, years of effort for most with talent; many will never expend the substantial effort to attain this level, even after decades of work in the field. Everyone a this level has a very large time investment.
Example: major skills of an extremely talented university or solid doctoral graduate with some experience, professional skills of the most dedicated everyman at the peak of his career, core skills of a highly trained and experienced soldier.
Typical: stat 11-15, 4-25 points

Skill 16-17: specialist - rare without talent in the field, years or decades of effort even for most with talent. Rare to have multiple skills at this level.
Example: main skill of a talented scientist, top-level pro athlete, chess grandmaster, or elite special operator.
Typical: stat 12-16, 8-30 points

Skill 18-19: master - a strong combination of all of talent, effort, and time. Best-in-field class of ability. Notoriety within practitioners of the skill is likely. Level of devotion to any skill this high is likely to result in lower levels in other skills, due to lack of time, for all but the most rarely talented.
Example: Olympic medal contenders, world-class researchers, top musical virtuosos. Note that a requirement for broad skills, such as special operators, generally precludes this level of skill.
Typical: stat 13-16, 15-35 points

Skill 20-21: legend - a combination of extreme talent and sustained obsessive devotion over many years. A level of skill that seems incomprehensible to most people.
Example: Kasparov (Chess), Erdos (Math)
Typical: stat 14-16, 20-40 points
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