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Old 10-15-2018, 09:15 AM   #1
Helborn
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Default Should sling be its own talent?

I've always been bothered by the inclusion of slings in the bow talent since they use completely different mechanics.

I can use this a house rule but what about Sling as an IQ 7 1 pt talent which uses missile range DX modifications and the damage, instead of a flat 1-2, is ST dependent (uses the regular ST damage table - with a +1 for fighters).

User gets a DX bonus if Thrown Weapons is known. NO bonus for knowing Missile Weapons.
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Old 10-15-2018, 09:28 AM   #2
platimus
 
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Default Re: Should sling be its own talent?

I was thinking about this the other night. I think Slings should be included in the Thrown Weapons talent. Definitely not Bows though.
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Old 10-15-2018, 09:43 AM   #3
TippetsTX
 
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Default Re: Should sling be its own talent?

Related question... why should the Missile Weapon talent apply equally to vastly different types of weapons? The new rules have already set a precedent w/ Weapon Expertise/Mastery talents so why wouldn't the same logic apply to bows, crossbows, slings, etc.?
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Old 10-15-2018, 10:24 AM   #4
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Should sling be its own talent?

It does seem odd that Bow includes Sling, if a sling is the twirling/release kind of sling.

If a sling is more like a slingshot, maybe?

Not having learned to use a twirl/release sling myself, I am not sure if expertise would be more like Thrown Weapons or Missile Weapons in terms of whether the skill would transfer and overlap, or not. I'd love to hear from someone who has actually developed some ability with that sort of sling.

A slingshot sling, on the other hand, seems really easier to learn than a bow and sort of similar - I could see an archer being able to use that sort of sling, though someone who trained with that sort of slingshot I think would have more to learn to be good with a bow.

There was a discussion here a couple of months ago about whether missile weapons should really cover all missile weapons or not, IIRC partly including SJ. IIRC, the consensus was that while strictly speaking they're different things to learn, that in TFT, particularly with the way Talents are major allocations of learning ability, it didn't seem desirable to make a character learn Missile Weapons more than once for multiple weapons, as there probably is some overlap anyway so the total cost would be huge, it's not like there's an abusive super-great character design who gains much from knowing more than one sort of missile weapon really well, and above all for the official TFT rules, it would be added complexity for little if any gain.
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Old 10-15-2018, 11:27 AM   #5
Helborn
 
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Default Re: Should sling be its own talent?

The aiming procedure for bows and crossbows is relatively similar. I have used both slings and slingshots in my time and while slingshots belong in the bow category (aiming mechanics again and the draw), the simple sling of Egyptian and Babylonian times, when it outranged the bow and formed a separate missile corps, is, really, just an extension of a thrown stone.

Slingshots did not exist until vulcanized rubber (~1840), while hand catapults did exist in antiquity and should be included under the Crossbow Talent. However, because of their limited range and inaccuracy, they should not actually appear except as novelties or Mnoren artifacts.
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Old 10-15-2018, 11:42 AM   #6
Tenex
 
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Default Re: Should sling be its own talent?

I've used slings, slingshots and bows. Although I have to include the caveat that I am by no means an expert with any of them. Some observations...

Using a bow accurately involves some consistency in form. The hand holding the bow is extended fully and the hand drawing the string is brought back to the same point every time, typically the base of the ear. The more you lock your grip, wrist, elbow and shoulder, the more consistent your base will be and the more accurate you can be.

It might be just me, but I found it far easier to be consistent with a bow than with a slingshot. The same principles would apply, but the bow just seemed easier to lock in than the small slingshot. I think it was because a bow is easier to hold straight up and down due to its length, but it is easy to have the slingshot angle a little in your grip and not notice.

It is possible to brace a slingshot against a tree trunk or wall similar to bracing a crossbow. You can't really brace a regular bow.

A sling is not used in a way that the upper body can be braced in a manner that is replicable every time. All the above weapons can be used with a replicable lower body position, but the sling is unique in that the upper body can't be locked in. By swinging the arm, it does make it more akin to a thrown weapon. The sling is to a rock the way a spear thrower is to a spear. Rocks are thrown, spears are thrown, spears are more effective with a spear thrower and a rock is more effective with a sling.

I would make a slingshot do less damage than a sling since you can get a lot more momentum out of a sling than can be stored in the bands of a slingshot. But slingshots could probably come in light and heavy models like crossbows.

The question is where to get elastic bands in a medieval tech world?
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Old 10-15-2018, 03:56 PM   #7
larsdangly
 
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Default Re: Should sling be its own talent?

Yes, a sling should absolutely be its own talent; it has nothing whatsoever to do with shooting a bow. If you introduced this as an optional 'house rule' talent, I'd recommend also adding to the value of it by introducing the staff sling as a new weapon. That said, I don't intend on monkeying with it for the time being - it is too small of a detail for me to devote a house rule to at this point.
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Old 10-15-2018, 06:08 PM   #8
platimus
 
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Default Re: Should sling be its own talent?

Quote:
The sling is to a rock the way a spear thrower is to a spear. Rocks are thrown, spears are thrown, spears are more effective with a spear thrower and a rock is more effective with a sling.

I would make a slingshot do less damage than a sling since you can get a lot more momentum out of a sling than can be stored in the bands of a slingshot. But slingshots could probably come in light and heavy models like crossbows.

The question is where to get elastic bands in a medieval tech world?
Yes. This was the basis for my suggestion that slings should be in the Thrown Weapons talent. If a slingshot were available in a fantasy/medieval setting, I probably would group that in with bows.

Entertaining the notions that they might exists - perhaps Wizards have invented rubber, although it wouldn't really require magic, just the right plants and processes - it is possible that a slingshot could be braced and locked like a bow. Consider a short staff with the elastic bands attached to a Y at top of the staff. Depending on the length and elasticity of the bands, you could draw it back to the ear and fire in a manner very similar to a bow. Yes, I am reminded of the Kinder? in the Dragonlance novels.

Also, even though I would consider slings to fall into the Thrown Weapon talent for basic usage, I would definitely make a Sling Expert and Mastery talent.

Last edited by platimus; 10-15-2018 at 06:12 PM.
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Old 10-15-2018, 07:12 PM   #9
Jack O'All Trades
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Should sling be its own talent?

They should be their own talent, and they should probably be considerably more powerful than RAW.

http://www.chrisharrison.net/index.php/Research/Sling

This is a concern for me as I tend to take Antiquity as my inspiration for settings, not the Early Modern Period. The default setting feels closer to 15th century so I can understand de-emphasizing slings (and for that matter javelins).
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Old 10-15-2018, 07:21 PM   #10
Tenex
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Should sling be its own talent?

So I was thinking about how back in the day everyone in my neighborhood had a Wrist Rocket. When I Googled that I found an enormous variety on Amazon with all kinds of braces, sights, counterweights... who knew?

As for damage, as I think about it I'm kind of conflicted. At the low end of the scale you end up with lots of stuff getting crunched together. For instance, sha-ken at 1d-2. Frankly I don't think a throwing star could penetrate deeply enough to do measurable damage. And how does a whip do 1d-1 compared to getting shot with an arrow from a small bow?

In the end, maybe just leave the damage for a slingshot at 1d-2. There's just not enough game difference, not real world difference, to justify splitting it out.

Last edited by Tenex; 10-15-2018 at 08:36 PM.
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