07-14-2016, 02:43 PM | #81 | |||||
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Re: Swords and plate
From the dissertation I cited earlier:
John of Winterthur described the appeal of the halberd when he explained what Duke Leopold was up against at Morgarten. He writes: “Also the Swiss have in their hands death weapons, which have been called in popular speech ‘Helnbarten,’ and are very frightful. These slice like a razor and slash into pieces such strongly armed opponents.” Razor, slash. Hmm. And just the next paragraph, it says: "So, the iron halberd was the first versatile pole-weapon that put the foot soldier at a distinct advantage over the knight: it could crack through armor. An expressly offensive weapon, its value, then, was that it significantly decreased the protective appeal of plate armor. While it also left the halberdier vulnerable—it had to be carried with both hands, so those who wielded it had to give up the shield—its effectiveness was apparently worth it, especially for footsoldiers like the Swiss, who were lightly armed anyway." You can equivocate all you want. But here is a scholar making the claim. Take it or leave it. What we don't have is a scholar saying they couldn't do this. In fact here's a small snippet to contrary: John Clements, Medieval Swordsmanship: "Quite common were heavy axes, halberds, and pole-axes with blade heads especially able to dent, gash, or pierce heavier armor." James C. Bradford, International Encyclopedia of Military History "Axes, flanged maces, and the pollaxe, (a combination of axe-head, hammer, and spike) was developed to attack and defeat armor by hacking and crushing it." Ewart Oakeshott, A Knight and His Armor "In a battle at Courtrai in Flanders (1302), the halberd was wielded by burly Flemish townsmen who wiped out a large and splendidly equipped force of French knights." Emily Sebastian, Technology of the Medieval and Early Modern Worlds "The halberd was a specialized weapon for fighting armored men-at-arms and penetrating knightly armor...the halberd could penetrate the best plate armor, allowing infantrymen to inflict heavy casualties on their mounted opponents" Larry H. Addington, The Patterns of War Through the Eighteenth Century "the axe-like halberd, which could cleave through armor and flesh alike" Trevor Nevitt Dupuy, The Evolution of Weapons and Warfare "the halberd ... It could cleave through helmet and armor, sever a sword blade, or fell a horse with a blow." Charles Oman, A History of the Art of War in the Middle Ages: 1278-1485 A.D "The halberd...swung by strong arms it could cleave helmets and plate-armour as no sword could do." These are, of course, some of the most important names in the study of weapons armor. They seem convinced that these weapons did penetrate armor. Quote:
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07-14-2016, 02:51 PM | #82 | |
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Re: Swords and plate
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07-14-2016, 02:54 PM | #83 |
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Re: Swords and plate
Polearms always sounded like me swinging a light couch at someone. Sure, I can do it, and if it hit, you'd go DOWN. But not the most versatile of weapons for most gaming situations of sudden short skirmishses.
(Some couches really are light enough to swing, I know from silly experiments. that weren't even when I "hulked" out from anxiety.)
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07-14-2016, 03:12 PM | #84 | |
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
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Re: Swords and plate
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0.028" steel is 23-gauge.
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07-14-2016, 03:18 PM | #85 | ||
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Swords and plate
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Part of the problem here is that we don't have any really functional armor damage rules. If you damage a suit of armor by enough to create a 2" gash in the armor, the hit that opened that gash will probably not even reach flesh, let alone cause any meaningful damage, but it will both weaken the armor and introduce a gap that can be penetrated, so subsequent blows will be more dangerous. |
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07-14-2016, 03:24 PM | #86 |
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Re: Swords and plate
I remember 20ga steel LARP armor fit in the category of 'people can adjust fit by bending in hand'
How do electric shears work? I remember my electric shears could cut 14ga mild steel like it wasn't there, but I would guess they work on a different method than halberds? |
07-14-2016, 03:35 PM | #87 | |
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
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Re: Swords and plate
Quote:
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07-14-2016, 03:35 PM | #88 | ||
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Re: Swords and plate
Quote:
Here's another anecdote: Jim Bradbury, The Medieval Siege "Charles [the Bold] to battle at Nancy, where he was killed. His naked body was identified two days later in the frozen mud, half eaten by wolves, his helmet and head split by a Swiss halberd." Michael Stephenson, The Last Full Measure: How Soldiers Die in Battle "the Swiss infantry, “slashing and striking with their terrible halberds, shearing through helms,” Quote:
If I were to guess, I suspect that pollaxe and halberd were useful because they gave you the ability to pierce and bash away at the target, and that the heavy armor gave you such protection that it was small wounds, comparatively that did you in. I suspect, also that a full force, overhead smash would be a killing blow, but you couldn't always get that in until you had knocked the guy down. Thus, I think it would be hard to present these weapons as akin to modern fencing movements -- they were too slow and sluggish for that. You weren't dancing around tapping at each other's sword blades. You were bashing and flailing, probably poking a high percentage of the time, until your guy stumbled and was dazed, and then you delivered the kill shot. That's my guess, anyway, from reading some of the manuals.
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07-14-2016, 03:41 PM | #89 |
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Re: Swords and plate
I've tried the armor damage rules from Low Tech . . . they make plate armor turn into expensive confetti very very quickly
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07-14-2016, 11:07 PM | #90 |
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Forest Grove, Beaverton, Oregon
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Re: Swords and plate
That'll teach me to "Google", read, and post quickly without verifying before leaving. Or it would if I had a good memory.
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