Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-25-2018, 11:59 PM   #41
weby
 
weby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Default Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Azagthoth View Post
The only thing preventing in GURPS to do this is because there's quite a penalty for strikes to the head which don't quite measure up in real life (at least not for punching).
Mostly they do, against a skilled opponent head strikes are quite a lot more difficult than torso and limb strikes as people are really quite able to often pull their head away or block head attack much easier than attacks against other parts of the body.

Against unskilled opponents you can always use telegraphic attack. Most unskilled fighters use both telegraphic and all out...

What is not fully modeled is the "shielding" that arms often give to torso, making torso attacks often hit arms instead, the relative ease of hitting the "near arm" and similar things.
__________________
--
GURPS spaceship unofficial errata and thoughts: https://gsuc.roto.nu/
weby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2018, 12:03 PM   #42
safisher
Gunnery Sergeant,
 Imperial Marines
Coauthor,
 GURPS High-Tech
 
safisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Default Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps

I've been messing around learning the open license version of Traveller, called the Cepheus Engine. By comparison to GURPS, it's incredibly poor at tracking the things I've come to appreciate about GURPS -- the damage, bleeding, hit locations, and so forth. These things really help describe combat, and help medics, recovery, and so forth really matter. Also, Traveller has a comparatively poor system of handling vehicle combat compared to GURPS Vehicles. The skill is very granular, too. You get the point -- each system has its strengths and weaknesses. By learning a new game you'll come to see this and maybe appreciate the things about GURPS you like.
__________________
Buy my stuff on E23.
My GURPS blog, Dark Journeys, is here.
Fav Blogs: Doug Cole here , C.R. Rice's here, & Hans Christian Vortisch here.
safisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2018, 01:56 PM   #43
Algarik
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Trois-Rivières, QC, Canada
Default Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps

Quote:
Originally Posted by safisher View Post
I've been messing around learning the open license version of Traveller, called the Cepheus Engine. By comparison to GURPS, it's incredibly poor at tracking the things I've come to appreciate about GURPS -- the damage, bleeding, hit locations, and so forth. These things really help describe combat, and help medics, recovery, and so forth really matter. Also, Traveller has a comparatively poor system of handling vehicle combat compared to GURPS Vehicles. The skill is very granular, too. You get the point -- each system has its strengths and weaknesses. By learning a new game you'll come to see this and maybe appreciate the things about GURPS you like.
I don't deny that every systems as it's strength and weakness, that would be very naive of me. My problems had more to do with some key element in gurps that have problem with that always seems to push me off to d20 systems, which i happen to know well. Hopefully with all the good advice people in this tread have been giving me i'll be able to work something out.

Thanks you for your input :)
Algarik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2018, 06:14 PM   #44
VonKatzen
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Default Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps

Quote:
I feel that the game is too human-centric. Monsters are really, really hard to balance. Either they die too quickly or player get obliterated.
This is sort of a function of realism. Basically if you give a tiger a human IQ he's a death machine on wheels. Tigers can already throw humans around like ragdolls (they have nightvision, super strength, super speed, super agility, bigger, tougher, more cold resistant, better motion tracking, etc), pretty much their only weakness is low IQ and no thumbs. For a non-human to be balanced with a human it basically has to be a human. Anything stronger, weaker, or different enough is going to be incredibly dead or incredibly deadly. Anything that can't do technology is (probably) going to get wasted by prepared humans, because guns > nature.
Fantasy monsters tend to be modeled on natural beasts turned up to 11. Natural beasts are already very lethal (unless you're in an armored car and have a rifle) and making them even more powerful/weird makes them even more dangerous. Sci-fi creatures tend to be "sociopathic humans with powers" which are just as deadly as humans (can easily kill each other in seconds with any luck) but moreso.

For me the problem with D20 type systems is just the opposite: how is it physically possible to swordfight a creature the size of a Tiger tank with steel skin, that flies, breathes fire and has a 200 IQ? I don't understand the mechanical possibility of actually melee'ing such a creature, it seems totally bogus. Its fingers are longer than your sword, when it stands up its belly is higher than your head...wtf is actually going on in a knight v. dragon battle? Why doesn't it just step on him? GURPS accurately models the damage such a massive creature would do when it so much as slaps you (ie you die instantly) which is less fictionally-appropriate but more physically meaningful. Fighting a dragon should be like sword-fighting a fighter-bomber piloted by a wizard. You lose!

Last edited by VonKatzen; 03-26-2018 at 06:20 PM.
VonKatzen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 10:34 AM   #45
Algarik
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Trois-Rivières, QC, Canada
Default Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps

Quote:
Originally Posted by VonKatzen View Post
This is sort of a function of realism. Basically if you give a tiger a human IQ he's a death machine on wheels. Tigers can already throw humans around like ragdolls (they have nightvision, super strength, super speed, super agility, bigger, tougher, more cold resistant, better motion tracking, etc), pretty much their only weakness is low IQ and no thumbs. For a non-human to be balanced with a human it basically has to be a human. Anything stronger, weaker, or different enough is going to be incredibly dead or incredibly deadly. Anything that can't do technology is (probably) going to get wasted by prepared humans, because guns > nature.

I had no problems with animals, maybe except for the fact that animals hit location table mostly remained the same and i thought it should have varied at least a bit. Exemple: Hiting a wolf back leg is easier than hitting it's face from a foward position, that's a bit weird. Beside i agree that beast should retain low IQ, wouldn't make much sense otherwise.

Beside i agree vs well prepared human earth-like beast shouldn't stand much chance and the higher TL the human are, the lower the beast stand chance.

Animals being strong or weak weren't really a concern, but i still think gurps is still too human centric, math start getting wonky at low and high numbers. Which is fine, no system is perfect, that what just something that annoyed me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VonKatzen View Post
Fantasy monsters tend to be modeled on natural beasts turned up to 11. Natural beasts are already very lethal (unless you're in an armored car and have a rifle) and making them even more powerful/weird makes them even more dangerous. Sci-fi creatures tend to be "sociopathic humans with powers" which are just as deadly as humans (can easily kill each other in seconds with any luck) but moreso.
Fantasy monster are hard to balance, because monsters generally need high HP to have any semblance of toughness they generally need high strength which mean they hit the player for too much damage. There's ways around that i agree, but it's hard to balance. The Solo monster is something incredibly hard to pull off in gurps,

For higher TL games i had problem with balancing monsters to face guns, i mean a solo monster shouldn't be threat to a marine squad, but i found monster to be trivial against anything with a basic rifle. Which i thought was a shame because space opera do have monster. People have been giving me trick to deal with this issue, i'll probably try something out.

I guess having monster that can blend technologies with their innate ability could help to regarding to this issue. A dragon in power armor would be a fearsome foe!

Quote:
Originally Posted by VonKatzen View Post
For me the problem with D20 type systems is just the opposite: how is it physically possible to swordfight a creature the size of a Tiger tank with steel skin, that flies, breathes fire and has a 200 IQ? I don't understand the mechanical possibility of actually melee'ing such a creature, it seems totally bogus. Its fingers are longer than your sword, when it stands up its belly is higher than your head...wtf is actually going on in a knight v. dragon battle? Why doesn't it just step on him? GURPS accurately models the damage such a massive creature would do when it so much as slaps you (ie you die instantly) which is less fictionally-appropriate but more physically meaningful. Fighting a dragon should be like sword-fighting a fighter-bomber piloted by a wizard. You lose!
I completely agree, this is my main gripe with d20 system. There's cinematic and there's video-game like and i felt d20 was the later. You shouldn't expect to win a fight agaisn't a building-sized dragon by striking it with your sword and you shouldn't expect to survive that dragon breath without some sort of cover or magical/high tech fire resistant armor.

Thank you for your time :)
Algarik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 04:05 PM   #46
VonKatzen
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Default Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps

Quote:
Originally Posted by Algarik View Post
I guess having monster that can blend technologies with their innate ability could help to regarding to this issue. A dragon in power armor would be a fearsome foe!
That's called Rifts.
VonKatzen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 06:01 PM   #47
weby
 
weby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Default Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps

Quote:
Originally Posted by VonKatzen View Post
That's called Rifts.
Talking about problematic game mechanics: M.D.C.
__________________
--
GURPS spaceship unofficial errata and thoughts: https://gsuc.roto.nu/
weby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2018, 11:28 PM   #48
VonKatzen
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Default Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps

Quote:
Originally Posted by weby View Post
Talking about problematic game mechanics: M.D.C.
What everyone says is that Rifts is great except for the actual game mechanics. But Siembieda is a weirdo and refuses to let anyone release ports of his world in any of the hundreds of far superior game systems (except, belatedly, Savage Worlds).

Of course thanks to the internet he'll never be able to stop all those PDFs of Rifts for ten different game systems that are circulating.
VonKatzen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2018, 04:12 AM   #49
Yako
 
Yako's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Germany
Default Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps

Quote:
Originally Posted by Algarik View Post
W
- I feel that the game is too human-centric. Monsters are really, really hard to balance. Either they die too quickly or player get obliterated.
Honestly, this point I really cannot agree with at all.
I mean, compared to what?
D20 systems, I would say, are not a good comparison with their wonky rules for natural attacks vs armed or unarmed attacks. It boggles my mind honestly how a system can have completely different systems for a human punching someone and a creature with claws striking someone.

In D20 systems, partly due to the nature of the class and race system, you really cannot even play something that is not pretty much a slightly different human without the system starting to fall apart.

GURPS also actually has relatively streamlined rules for how different body shapes affect basic combat maneuvers, a system that, for all those differences, is much more unified than d20 tends to be.

Or is this just about the "Bestiary"?

I mean, yes, that is pretty much the big D20 advantage, not just against GURPS, but also against systems like World of Darkness.
You have lots of pregenerated things, monsters, magic items, adventures and so on.

But the thing is, you can pretty much give a monster anything you can give a humanoid opponent, at least in a fantasy or science fantasy setting.
Monsters do not get access to high tech weapons? No problem, give them powerful innate attacks.
They get shot before entering melee (when you do not want them to)? Give them really high dodge (maybe with the limitation "only when moving at least x yards per second), Damage Resistance or Damage Reduction against piercing / tight beam burning, vulnerable spots which make it hard to consistently be hit at longer range, or just so much move that it is hard to get more than one shot in.

I often use "monsters" (I usually run fantasy games or scifi with supernatural elements) and I really never had the problem that monsters worked less well than human opponents.

Single both monsters, in pretty much any system, can be hard to balance compared to groups (just because it makes it much easier for heroes to use superior positioning which can be quite decisive), but I would say GURPS gives you a lot of tools for that. You can rather freely scale up number of attacks, Health Points, Damage Resistance, etc.
Also, given how much a tough monster can go into negative HP, I think I more often see the issue of monsters having more staying power than expected (and many players just expect things to drop dead at 0 HP, even though they tend to be happy for their characters not to do so).



I personally can see some pros of D20 systems versus GURPS, the ease of play due to lots of pregenerated content, the fact that there is at least some inbuilt balancing mechanic to use, even if it is flawed, the simpler skill system which saves you the effort to check if you have all the skills needed for something or not (GURPS has rather specialized skills for some areas which can be unintuitive to use) and the fact that it seems a bit easier for many people to get into since the hurdles of learning tend to arrive at the optimization stage and the number of available options while the system pretends simplicity with the basic character creation.
It also has in its favor the fact that ranged weapons fold a bit more easily into the 6 second round, many people do not like systems where they have to spend several rounds just preparing a ranged attack rather than attacking every round.

I still much prefer GURPS personally, since almost every time I play a d20 based game, I run into the issue of having to compromise in ways I do not find fun (cannot play a monstrous race without things breaking apart, shapeshifting is often badly balanced, some classes being stuck with prepared casting, etc.).

If GURPS had a retooling of the skill system to more easily allow different levels of detail (something that might also alleviate the issue of skills vs attributes), worked on that Combat Rating system some more and added more pregenerated monsters, I do not think I would have much of any reason to ever want d20 for anything.
Some easy to use guidelines for maximum levels of innate attacks, DR and other open ended advantages for different point / tech levels and a limitation on heroic archer for easier quick shooting only would also be sweet.
__________________
Please check out my templates for making your own "Cardboard Heroes"!

Custom Cardboard Miniatures
Yako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2018, 12:54 PM   #50
Algarik
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Trois-Rivières, QC, Canada
Default Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yako View Post
Honestly, this point I really cannot agree with at all.
My goal wasn’t to make a ‘’which systems is best’’, i was mostly stating what i liked with both systems and why i kept switching between the two, but i’ll still take the time to answer your post, as you took the time to answer me :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yako View Post
I mean, compared to what?
Compared to D20 games, the math generally tend to start getting wonky at higher level of play. Slam rules are a good example of that. I don’t mean to say d20 is more realistic, it’s not, but i found gurps rule to work better when i stayed in the human range.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yako View Post
D20 systems, I would say, are not a good comparison with their wonky rules for natural attacks vs armed or unarmed attacks. It boggles my mind honestly how a system can have completely different systems for a human punching someone and a creature with claws striking someone.
It’s not that much different that in gurps, in fact the only difference between armed and natural attack is the fact that natural attack does not get more itterative attack with high BBA, which does not exist in gurps. The only advantage natural attack haves over hand-to-hand in D20 are the bigger damage dice, lethal damage and that it does not provoke attack of opportunity when you strike with it. For a feat, you can treat your unarmed attack as a manufactured weapon, just like a monk, if you really want to fight unnarmed.
Gurps have the same idea if you strike something without a weapon and you get parried, the oponent get a free strike at -4 vs your limb. Beside, in gurps most natural attack strike only using thrust damage, which is rather weak. For example, Tigers have 17 ST, thus they hit for 1d+2 Cut, which is about as strong as a 10 ST human striking with a broadsword. Grizzly haves 19 ST, which bring them to 2d-1 cr, which is about as strong as a 13 ST human striking with a short staff. On top of that the tiger and the bear striking will probably get parried and any fighter worth it’s share will have a moderate chance of success of freely hiting the animals limb in retaliation.

I’m not saying gurps is bad, but i think it’s harder to balance creatures vs players in gurps than it is in D20.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yako View Post
In D20 systems, partly due to the nature of the class and race system, you really cannot even play something that is not pretty much a slightly different human without the system starting to fall apart.
I agree with this statement, without heavy rule modifications, it’s rather hard to play something else than humanoid in D20 systems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yako View Post
GURPS also actually has relatively streamlined rules for how different body shapes affect basic combat maneuvers, a system that, for all those differences, is much more unified than d20 tends to be.
I was not aware of that, which rules are you refering to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yako View Post
Or is this just about the "Bestiary"?

I mean, yes, that is pretty much the big D20 advantage, not just against GURPS, but also against systems like World of Darkness.
You have lots of pregenerated things, monsters, magic items, adventures and so on.
Pregenerated things and bestiaries are godsendt for the university student that i am, between working and homework i tend not having a lot of time to prepare a whole lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yako View Post
But the thing is, you can pretty much give a monster anything you can give a humanoid opponent, at least in a fantasy or science fantasy setting.
Yes and No, it have to make some kind of sense, otherwise it breaks immersion and i don’t think fantasy and sci-fi are excuse to break all laws of physics and reality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yako View Post
Monsters do not get access to high tech weapons? No problem, give them powerful innate attacks.
They get shot before entering melee (when you do not want them to)? Give them really high dodge (maybe with the limitation "only when moving at least x yards per second), Damage Resistance or Damage Reduction against piercing / tight beam burning, vulnerable spots which make it hard to consistently be hit at longer range, or just so much move that it is hard to get more than one shot in.
I think that’s easier said than done, for a monster to have all those abilities, i have to find some reasoning behind it, i can’t just think ‘’ Hmm… my players have spears and lazer guns i’ll had burning and percing DR so he can be tougher’’ if it make no sense for the monster to have this ability. Which brings me back to lack of real beastiaries, if gurps had one of those, it would be easier to ‘’shop’’ for monster that can stand to the player.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yako View Post
I often use "monsters" (I usually run fantasy games or scifi with supernatural elements) and I really never had the problem that monsters worked less well than human opponents.
I’m glad that this is the case for you, althought this have not been my experience, maybe the problem is with me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yako View Post
Also, given how much a tough monster can go into negative HP, I think I more often see the issue of monsters having more staying power than expected (and many players just expect things to drop dead at 0 HP, even though they tend to be happy for their characters not to do so).
In my realistic games, npcs and ennemies get the same rule the PCs get access to, so yeah monster stay awake if they succed their HT check. Problem is, unless you got to defend some position or the monster is crazy fast, you can start ignoring it when he drop to 0 or less, all you need to do is outrun it and he will eventually fail an HT check.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yako View Post
I personally can see some pros of D20 systems versus GURPS, the ease of play due to lots of pregenerated content, the fact that there is at least some inbuilt balancing mechanic to use, even if it is flawed, the simpler skill system which saves you the effort to check if you have all the skills needed for something or not (GURPS has rather specialized skills for some areas which can be unintuitive to use) and the fact that it seems a bit easier for many people to get into since the hurdles of learning tend to arrive at the optimization stage and the number of available options while the system pretends simplicity with the basic character creation.
Like i said at the begening of my post, my intent has never been to do a D20 vs Gurps battle at being the best systems both are good for what they try to accomplish. Honestly, i prefer gurps and i generally only return to d20 out of discouragement. Which is why i made the thread even if it came out a bit ranty, people have been giving me some great advice!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yako View Post
It also has in its favor the fact that ranged weapons fold a bit more easily into the 6 second round, many people do not like systems where they have to spend several rounds just preparing a ranged attack rather than attacking every round.
That is because, doing nothing but reloading in a crossbow* that will hit for thr+4/+5, for about 3 to 5 turns, then aiming and finally shooting and to have your target dodge for about half of the time is just plain boring imo. Especially when your greatsword wielding Pal is swinging for swing+3 once or twice every turn and can even try to negate some of it’s ennemies defense with feint and deceptive attack. Range is fine in higher tech Level, but then melee start getting useless, it’s hard to have both being effective at the same time.
*You could use a bow with fast draw(Arrow) to reload in one second, but bows are most costly, hit for less damage and generally have less accuracy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yako View Post
I still much prefer GURPS personally, since almost every time I play a d20 based game, I run into the issue of having to compromise in ways I do not find fun (cannot play a monstrous race without things breaking apart, shapeshifting is often badly balanced, some classes being stuck with prepared casting, etc.).
I generally like that D20 systems makes unusual characters so hard to pull off, because when i succeed i feel likes it’s an accomplishment, but i wouldn’t call that a pros for the system. :P
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yako View Post
If GURPS had a retooling of the skill system to more easily allow different levels of detail (something that might also alleviate the issue of skills vs attributes), worked on that Combat Rating system some more and added more pregenerated monsters, I do not think I would have much of any reason to ever want d20 for anything.
Some easy to use guidelines for maximum levels of innate attacks, DR and other open ended advantages for different point / tech levels and a limitation on heroic archer for easier quick shooting only would also be sweet.
Couldn’t agree more with you :)
Well thanks for your response, it’s appreciated! :)
Algarik is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.