03-25-2018, 11:59 PM | #41 | |
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps
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Against unskilled opponents you can always use telegraphic attack. Most unskilled fighters use both telegraphic and all out... What is not fully modeled is the "shielding" that arms often give to torso, making torso attacks often hit arms instead, the relative ease of hitting the "near arm" and similar things. |
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03-26-2018, 12:03 PM | #42 |
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps
I've been messing around learning the open license version of Traveller, called the Cepheus Engine. By comparison to GURPS, it's incredibly poor at tracking the things I've come to appreciate about GURPS -- the damage, bleeding, hit locations, and so forth. These things really help describe combat, and help medics, recovery, and so forth really matter. Also, Traveller has a comparatively poor system of handling vehicle combat compared to GURPS Vehicles. The skill is very granular, too. You get the point -- each system has its strengths and weaknesses. By learning a new game you'll come to see this and maybe appreciate the things about GURPS you like.
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03-26-2018, 01:56 PM | #43 | |
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Trois-Rivières, QC, Canada
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Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps
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Thanks you for your input :) |
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03-26-2018, 06:14 PM | #44 | |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2018
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Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps
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Fantasy monsters tend to be modeled on natural beasts turned up to 11. Natural beasts are already very lethal (unless you're in an armored car and have a rifle) and making them even more powerful/weird makes them even more dangerous. Sci-fi creatures tend to be "sociopathic humans with powers" which are just as deadly as humans (can easily kill each other in seconds with any luck) but moreso. For me the problem with D20 type systems is just the opposite: how is it physically possible to swordfight a creature the size of a Tiger tank with steel skin, that flies, breathes fire and has a 200 IQ? I don't understand the mechanical possibility of actually melee'ing such a creature, it seems totally bogus. Its fingers are longer than your sword, when it stands up its belly is higher than your head...wtf is actually going on in a knight v. dragon battle? Why doesn't it just step on him? GURPS accurately models the damage such a massive creature would do when it so much as slaps you (ie you die instantly) which is less fictionally-appropriate but more physically meaningful. Fighting a dragon should be like sword-fighting a fighter-bomber piloted by a wizard. You lose! Last edited by VonKatzen; 03-26-2018 at 06:20 PM. |
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03-27-2018, 10:34 AM | #45 | |||
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Trois-Rivières, QC, Canada
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Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps
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I had no problems with animals, maybe except for the fact that animals hit location table mostly remained the same and i thought it should have varied at least a bit. Exemple: Hiting a wolf back leg is easier than hitting it's face from a foward position, that's a bit weird. Beside i agree that beast should retain low IQ, wouldn't make much sense otherwise. Beside i agree vs well prepared human earth-like beast shouldn't stand much chance and the higher TL the human are, the lower the beast stand chance. Animals being strong or weak weren't really a concern, but i still think gurps is still too human centric, math start getting wonky at low and high numbers. Which is fine, no system is perfect, that what just something that annoyed me. Quote:
For higher TL games i had problem with balancing monsters to face guns, i mean a solo monster shouldn't be threat to a marine squad, but i found monster to be trivial against anything with a basic rifle. Which i thought was a shame because space opera do have monster. People have been giving me trick to deal with this issue, i'll probably try something out. I guess having monster that can blend technologies with their innate ability could help to regarding to this issue. A dragon in power armor would be a fearsome foe! Quote:
Thank you for your time :) |
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03-27-2018, 04:05 PM | #46 |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2018
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Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps
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03-27-2018, 06:01 PM | #47 |
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps
Talking about problematic game mechanics: M.D.C.
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03-27-2018, 11:28 PM | #48 |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2018
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Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps
What everyone says is that Rifts is great except for the actual game mechanics. But Siembieda is a weirdo and refuses to let anyone release ports of his world in any of the hundreds of far superior game systems (except, belatedly, Savage Worlds).
Of course thanks to the internet he'll never be able to stop all those PDFs of Rifts for ten different game systems that are circulating. |
03-28-2018, 04:12 AM | #49 | |
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Germany
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Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps
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I mean, compared to what? D20 systems, I would say, are not a good comparison with their wonky rules for natural attacks vs armed or unarmed attacks. It boggles my mind honestly how a system can have completely different systems for a human punching someone and a creature with claws striking someone. In D20 systems, partly due to the nature of the class and race system, you really cannot even play something that is not pretty much a slightly different human without the system starting to fall apart. GURPS also actually has relatively streamlined rules for how different body shapes affect basic combat maneuvers, a system that, for all those differences, is much more unified than d20 tends to be. Or is this just about the "Bestiary"? I mean, yes, that is pretty much the big D20 advantage, not just against GURPS, but also against systems like World of Darkness. You have lots of pregenerated things, monsters, magic items, adventures and so on. But the thing is, you can pretty much give a monster anything you can give a humanoid opponent, at least in a fantasy or science fantasy setting. Monsters do not get access to high tech weapons? No problem, give them powerful innate attacks. They get shot before entering melee (when you do not want them to)? Give them really high dodge (maybe with the limitation "only when moving at least x yards per second), Damage Resistance or Damage Reduction against piercing / tight beam burning, vulnerable spots which make it hard to consistently be hit at longer range, or just so much move that it is hard to get more than one shot in. I often use "monsters" (I usually run fantasy games or scifi with supernatural elements) and I really never had the problem that monsters worked less well than human opponents. Single both monsters, in pretty much any system, can be hard to balance compared to groups (just because it makes it much easier for heroes to use superior positioning which can be quite decisive), but I would say GURPS gives you a lot of tools for that. You can rather freely scale up number of attacks, Health Points, Damage Resistance, etc. Also, given how much a tough monster can go into negative HP, I think I more often see the issue of monsters having more staying power than expected (and many players just expect things to drop dead at 0 HP, even though they tend to be happy for their characters not to do so). I personally can see some pros of D20 systems versus GURPS, the ease of play due to lots of pregenerated content, the fact that there is at least some inbuilt balancing mechanic to use, even if it is flawed, the simpler skill system which saves you the effort to check if you have all the skills needed for something or not (GURPS has rather specialized skills for some areas which can be unintuitive to use) and the fact that it seems a bit easier for many people to get into since the hurdles of learning tend to arrive at the optimization stage and the number of available options while the system pretends simplicity with the basic character creation. It also has in its favor the fact that ranged weapons fold a bit more easily into the 6 second round, many people do not like systems where they have to spend several rounds just preparing a ranged attack rather than attacking every round. I still much prefer GURPS personally, since almost every time I play a d20 based game, I run into the issue of having to compromise in ways I do not find fun (cannot play a monstrous race without things breaking apart, shapeshifting is often badly balanced, some classes being stuck with prepared casting, etc.). If GURPS had a retooling of the skill system to more easily allow different levels of detail (something that might also alleviate the issue of skills vs attributes), worked on that Combat Rating system some more and added more pregenerated monsters, I do not think I would have much of any reason to ever want d20 for anything. Some easy to use guidelines for maximum levels of innate attacks, DR and other open ended advantages for different point / tech levels and a limitation on heroic archer for easier quick shooting only would also be sweet.
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03-28-2018, 12:54 PM | #50 | ||||||||||||
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Trois-Rivières, QC, Canada
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Re: System Fatigue: d20 and Gurps
My goal wasn’t to make a ‘’which systems is best’’, i was mostly stating what i liked with both systems and why i kept switching between the two, but i’ll still take the time to answer your post, as you took the time to answer me :)
Compared to D20 games, the math generally tend to start getting wonky at higher level of play. Slam rules are a good example of that. I don’t mean to say d20 is more realistic, it’s not, but i found gurps rule to work better when i stayed in the human range. Quote:
Gurps have the same idea if you strike something without a weapon and you get parried, the oponent get a free strike at -4 vs your limb. Beside, in gurps most natural attack strike only using thrust damage, which is rather weak. For example, Tigers have 17 ST, thus they hit for 1d+2 Cut, which is about as strong as a 10 ST human striking with a broadsword. Grizzly haves 19 ST, which bring them to 2d-1 cr, which is about as strong as a 13 ST human striking with a short staff. On top of that the tiger and the bear striking will probably get parried and any fighter worth it’s share will have a moderate chance of success of freely hiting the animals limb in retaliation. I’m not saying gurps is bad, but i think it’s harder to balance creatures vs players in gurps than it is in D20. Quote:
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*You could use a bow with fast draw(Arrow) to reload in one second, but bows are most costly, hit for less damage and generally have less accuracy. Quote:
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Well thanks for your response, it’s appreciated! :) |
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