Understanding slams

[Xplo]

Got a few questions...

- Shouldn't the damage rules favor the attacker? After all, they can apply the toughest parts of their body to the softest parts of the enemy (or at least try to). As it is, unless you're using a shield (which soaks all the damage it can), the mechanics are indistinct from someone being distracted by a pretty girl and blindly blundering into a lightpole, which is not the manner I would choose to slam someone...

- How exactly is Velocity calculated? (Assume the target is standing still.) Common sense suggests it's the attacker's Move (+ any applicable sprint bonus), and this is consistent with the rules for using Super Jump to slam. But if that's true...

- Why would anyone bother using AoA Strong, considering that it limits them to doing half damage +1/die (and sacrifices active defense) compared to using Move and Attack which does not penalize Slams?

- ...if it's not true, why the hell not? I grant that people don't accelerate instantly, but they reach full Move pretty quick. Surely, even if your target is only a hex away, the faster you can move, the harder you can slam into him, whether or not you have an extra five yards to build steam first.

- If you slam someone, and they either dodge or get knocked down, and you have movement left, can you slam additional targets? A strict reading of the rules suggests you can only slam once per turn per attack, since you make an Attack maneuver to slam, but I'm especially thinking of a large vehicle or monster that can plow through a crowd of foes like bowling pins.

[McAllister]

Originally Posted by Xplo

Got a few questions...

- Shouldn't the damage rules favor the attacker? After all, they can apply the toughest parts of their body to the softest parts of the enemy (or at least try to). As it is, unless you're using a shield (which soaks all the damage it can), the mechanics are indistinct from someone being distracted by a pretty girl and blindly blundering into a lightpole, which is not the manner I would choose to slam someone...

The damage rules favor the skilled attacker. See the effects of Brawl, Sumo Wrestling (and maybe Wrestling?) on damage.

- How exactly is Velocity calculated? (Assume the target is standing still.) Common sense suggests it's the attacker's Move (+ any applicable sprint bonus), and this is consistent with the rules for using Super Jump to slam. But if that's true...

You're correct...

- Why would anyone bother using AoA Strong, considering that it limits them to doing half damage +1/die (and sacrifices active defense) compared to using Move and Attack which does not penalize Slams?

Because AoA for Slams uses full move. AoA gets full move, M&A gets its penalties removed: the question is really whether the AoA effect is worth the defenselessness.

- ...if it's not true, why the hell not? I grant that people don't accelerate instantly, but they reach full Move pretty quick. Surely, even if your target is only a hex away, the faster you can move, the harder you can slam into him, whether or not you have an extra five yards to build steam first.

- If you slam someone, and they either dodge or get knocked down, and you have movement left, can you slam additional targets? A strict reading of the rules suggests you can only slam once per turn per attack, since you make an Attack maneuver to slam, but I'm especially thinking of a large vehicle or monster that can plow through a crowd of foes like bowling pins.

[/quote]Read Trample. I'd say to can keep moving if you can trample the first target.

[Xplo]

Originally Posted by McAllister

AoA for Slams uses full move.

Citation please.

[Enoch]

Originally Posted by Xplo

Citation please.

It's an optional rule. Martial Arts pg 98 under the header Slams as All-Out Attacks.

[Xplo]

Ah, no wonder! Thanks for that.

[Yako]

There have been a few threads on slam I think (which you will likely find with the search function or google), but the important point to take from them is that a mumber of people are not happy with the rules.

I personally do not use slams anymore before I make a houserule I am happy with.

I think using the collision rules for slams is about as sensible as using them for hitting someone with your fist, I agree with you, it just does no work well that way.


Ideally, I think slam should be based on thrust damage, add something for the movement speed, maybe half the actual damage it inflicts but double knockback and rule that you are not pushed back but instead down...

Maybe take some cues from shove...

I also think assuming distance moved = speed is stupid in this case.

Oh, and there is that whole idiocy about halflings slamming elephants because of the boni from simply added on damage are sometimes, at short distances, more significant than those from high HP...

[Gold & Appel Inc]

Originally Posted by Xplo

- How exactly is Velocity calculated? (Assume the target is standing still.) Common sense suggests it's the attacker's Move (+ any applicable sprint bonus), and this is consistent with the rules for using Super Jump to slam. But if that's true...

The way my group does this, is that your velocity is the number of hexes you moved before hitting the target from a standing start, but your full Move (plus spirinting) if you took a full Move or Move & Attack the round before you hit the guy, regardless of how far you have to travel to do that in the current round, because you already accelerated fully.

Originally Posted by Xplo

- Why would anyone bother using AoA Strong, considering that it limits them to doing half damage +1/die (and sacrifices active defense) compared to using Move and Attack which does not penalize Slams?

As mentioned above, 4e MA makes Slams a special case of Move & Attack even when All-Out, and that +2 damage is usually the difference between a knockdown and a shoving match when it comes to short-range Slams.

Originally Posted by Xplo

- ...if it's not true, why the hell not? I grant that people don't accelerate instantly, but they reach full Move pretty quick. Surely, even if your target is only a hex away, the faster you can move, the harder you can slam into him, whether or not you have an extra five yards to build steam first.

1 second is pretty quick.

Originally Posted by Xplo

- If you slam someone, and they either dodge or get knocked down, and you have movement left, can you slam additional targets? A strict reading of the rules suggests you can only slam once per turn per attack, since you make an Attack maneuver to slam, but I'm especially thinking of a large vehicle or monster that can plow through a crowd of foes like bowling pins.

See Slams by Multi-Hex Figures on 4e Campaigns p 392 for this.

[Xplo]

Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc

See Slams by Multi-Hex Figures on 4e Campaigns p 392 for this.

Oh, sweet. I know a player who's going to love that.

But how about single-hex creatures? Can Density Man (50 HP) plow through a crowd like bowling pins? Or does he have to slam them all one at a time?

[simply Nathan]

I've never been able to wrap my mind around the Slam rules and thus go out of my way to ignore the possibility that one thing might want to attack by ramming itself into another thing. It'd be nice if I had a better quick & dirty rule for finding out how much damage to use based on the ST and Move of the attacker rather than all the math that goes into the current version (kinda like how DF pit traps simply have _d cr damage instead of making you look up falling velocity and all that noise).

[Railstar]

Originally Posted by Kenneth Latrans

I've never been able to wrap my mind around the Slam rules and thus go out of my way to ignore the possibility that one thing might want to attack by ramming itself into another thing. It'd be nice if I had a better quick & dirty rule for finding out how much damage to use based on the ST and Move of the attacker rather than all the math that goes into the current version (kinda like how DF pit traps simply have _d cr damage instead of making you look up falling velocity and all that noise).

Use thrust for basic damage, +1 per 2 yards of velocity (based on the rules for a Stop Thrust), modified by skill (Brawling/Sumo) or weapon/shield-rush as appropriate.

Opponent makes the same roll, although without a damage bonus from skill or long weapons or shields unless he makes a successful Parry/Block.

If the opponent is not braced in position - such as if he attempts to Dodge, or is unaware of the attack - then he does not benefit from the +1 per 2 yards of velocity either.

Then either compare damage rolls normally as per the existing Slam rules. Or apply x2 knockback as per a shove, and use your margin of victory for the damage roll (so 3 if I rolled 7 damage and you rolled 4) as the penalty to the DX rolls to stay standing.