08-19-2019, 12:24 AM | #21 | |
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Cali
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Re: Missle spells in ITL
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But at a maximum damage level of 3d6 -6, I don't know that you are Taking Out anybody, just taking up an action that might weaken you in the heat of battle and yield no damage on a fabulous To Hit roll? Just looking at "average" damage at Maximum ST used, you aren't even inflicting a -2DX penalty as a result, and pray there isn't even 1 hit of armor/shield/toughness in play. At some point, you might as well just pick up a Bow or Crossbow if you are that Martial wizard build out. And lord have mercy if the Mnoren frown upon you, and you roll slightly low of average and deliver 0 - 3 hits. Actually the more we pour over this 3 ST missle spell limitation, the more I wonder when Steve n crew "re-structured" the rules, why not dump the terrible Averages of damage on a 3D limit (assuming you even chose Max, maybe you temper it to 2d6)? If you even ratcheted the damage up one notch, so that Magic Fist started at 1d6-1 (0-5 hits) and Fireball at IQ 12 (not a low IQ) delivered a Full d6 you wouldn't be imbalancing the game, just making it so that beginning wizards and Martial Wizards might live to their next birthday. No wizard in his/her right mind is going to burn off two 3d6 fireballs back to back unless they are just in a hurry to meet their maker. Adventure seldom stops after one brief combat encounter. And, I concur starting with an 8ST Wizard is just a short lived adventure in futility, and NO not every wizard should start off with Fireball just so they can have a CHANCE at delivering a big enough hit to make a difference in time of need. Statistically most of our Wizards died. Nobody ever really was successful in making it to High levels. It just didn't happen. TFT is just to brutal. |
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08-19-2019, 06:15 AM | #22 |
Join Date: Mar 2018
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Re: Missle spells in ITL
I'm with you jarhead, we used to have duels involving dim but strong ST11 DX12 IQ9 wizards that would throw massive 5d or 6d Fists. A lot of drama because 6d-12 can be spectacularly good or bad. No sure thing to say the least.
The challenge as I see it is to allow the occasional big Fists while preventing abuse of the other spells. So what about a spell that bumps Fist? Something like Overpowered Fist, IQ 9 or 10 (prerequisite Magic Fist). This spell would allow a Magic Fist with much higher or no limit on max ST. With such a spell, a 10/12/10 wizard could just about manage to knock someone down if things were desperate. |
08-19-2019, 11:39 AM | #23 |
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Cali
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Re: Missle spells in ITL
I'm a fan.
Improved Fist? Fist of Fury? It brings up another thing with wizards that never, or shall I more accurately say rarely ever came up because of the slim chance a wizard lived long enough to get there, was wizard's wrath. It was for sure a cool spell, lots of flavor, materializing as a variety of attack forms as well as packing a serious punch, the ability to deliver a hard hitting ranged attack that looked like a Fist , or Fire, or Lightening attack. As I started out above, few wizards actually lived long enough to use wizards's wrath. It would be good to add some flavor at the lower IQ levels as well. So anything that can add flavor and some options for starting wizards would be a plus. We have lightening, we have fire, we have telekinetic blow, could we have ICE? Balance it, damage appropriate to IQ, but add the cold feature for more game fun, and possibly a special affect in certain scenarios that we don't currently have. |
08-19-2019, 12:59 PM | #24 | |||||
Join Date: May 2015
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Re: Missle spells in ITL
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It's another case of whether someone can accept the bargain of uncertainty or zero-damage results in exchange for potential good results. For some players, they won't want that bargain so they shouldn't take magic fist. But for every disappointed wizard who didn't do big damage with a 3-die magic fist, there's also the perspective of his target, who is really glad that a 3-ST IQ 8 spell is NOT a guarantee of lots of damage. Quote:
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But there are also high rolls. High or slightly above-average rolls on 3d-6 do 6-12 damage. Again, pretty good for an IQ 8 3-ST spell. Quote:
Balance depends on the typical situations in play. I think the missile weapon damages are well-balanced for 32-point arena combat. And for campaign situations where wizards work with groups of fighters who keep the wizards from getting attacked, and who protect the wizards while they rest. I think what helps most to increase wizard survival chances (apart from bodyguards and moving carefully and Reverse Missiles, er, that is, the house rule that helps) is ruling that death only happens when actual injury (not fatigue, which still causes unconsciousness) brings ST below 0. That not only gives wizards a few more points to take injury with, but it means they tend to collapse and stop attracting attacks before they're dead. Well, unless they're doing what they should do anyway, and are moving to avoid the possibility of getting hurt, or they have no better way to win a battle, or they have other sources of ST, etc. |
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08-19-2019, 02:27 PM | #25 |
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Cali
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Re: Missle spells in ITL
As usual, great reply points.
Some even serve to reinforce my point that wizards rarely made it to the level that would allow use of wizards wrath. I call it the D&D party, where everyone is Neutral Good or Lawful Good, cooperative and friendly. Then... there is the TFT party that I played with, where I also happen to play (cause Steve is awesome) a REPTILE MAN. Let's just say my Party, and reflective of my friends in high school, was a little less Lawful Good, and a bit less cooperative. Add to that, that sometimes played a Reptile Man wizard. The need to fight, and stay standing, and be very self dependent made for a very non-D&D type of party strategy and character build philosophy. It's part of the reason when I returned to TFT decades later, I was in shock at the gilding of the "greater" creatures that I was so familiar with, the advancement being a struggle of course with XP, but Wizard Lizards didn't meet an early death, and stood their ground without the need for wizards wrath, and didn't take much Sh** from mouthy humans or pesky hobbits. It's been a fun challenge, changing my favorite character builds to try and adapt to the new rules, and see if they can survive and still be playable as I remembered. One thing is different, I was never a fan of armor before, but now I'm rethinking that, as I try and make something work that might live to take advantage of something I am not familiar with, rapid attribute improvement. Already I've run into one struggle, this notion that you can't save IQ points for talents? That just strikes me as weird. |
08-19-2019, 03:16 PM | #26 |
Join Date: May 2015
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Re: Missle spells in ITL
Yeah, I agree with you that:
* wizards often tend to have a hard time surviving dangerous situations, especially without allies * I prefer the original stronger versions of starting reptile men and gargoyles. Fortunately, it's easy for me to just use the original stats. (q.v. the House Rules sub-forum.) * I too have problems adopting the new way talents are learned. Again, for me it looks like it calls for house rules. (q.v. the House Rules sub-forum.) |
08-19-2019, 05:08 PM | #27 |
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Cali
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Re: Missle spells in ITL
It's easy to House Rule a solution.
Call me a Purist, I just have this hang up, like a total resistance type of thing to veering from written rules. I try super hard to do everything I can to not institute a house rule. Somewhere deep in my psyche I think Balance... if I were to change this, then what else might i encounter later that would have to be changed as a result? It's like a fear based hang up. It's also one of my irks... when I see changes made to a 40 yr old playable system, I'm thinking Really? Was that change necessary? Whom were we trying to appease? And for what reason? Greater creatures and lesser creatures was a cool thing in TFT. This "equality" thing that were on to now, just isn't a necessary change. In fact, all things said and done. Steve probably could have just re-released the original content, added some new Beasties n Spells and Talents and called it good. |
08-19-2019, 06:11 PM | #28 | |
Join Date: Jun 2019
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Re: Missle spells in ITL
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This does point out the problem again of talents competing for memory space with spells. Here's a possible solution to the high wizard mortality rate, but you can't or wouldn't use it because it lessens the ability to use magic at the same time it's helping keep the wizard alive long enough to use magic. A catch 22. Echoing what Jarhead pointed out, wizards rarely live long enough to learn Wizard's Wrath, but in my case I want to say never. My group (6 regulars) played 18 years without a PC ever getting to learn Wizard's Wrath, or most of the other colorful high level spells. We all built and tried many wizards, but they all died young, usually under 35 AP. (I did keep one wizard alive for all those years, but by deploying him only when he was sent on missions by his superior, an archmage NPC. He finally reached 40 AP after a good dozen campaigns, but that's still not a super-wizard.) Wizards are just weak in TFT. Not in duels with each other, those are balanced, and not in homogeneous parties where it's mostly or all wizards facing an enemy the GM has balanced against their abilities. But those aren't our typical situations. When it's a mixed party in a combat situation the GM has balanced to challenge the heroes, the wizard or two that might be in the party has a hard row to hoe, and they are more often than not the PCs who die. If they hang back and stay out of the fight, then they aren't advancing themselves. Damned if they do, and damned if they don't. They depended a lot on missile spells to level the playing field. If missile spells are to be as constrained as the new RAW say they are, we need to look to house rules in other areas to fortify our wizards.
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08-19-2019, 07:17 PM | #29 | ||||
Join Date: May 2015
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Re: Missle spells in ITL
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Another limit is from the gesture rules, which will limit what a wizard can hold and cast spells at certain IQ levels. Making a bow into a staff could (again, ask GM) be a way around that part of the puzzle. Quote:
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If you think so, and want to, great. If I thought so, I might just rather leave out the new limits. As long as you let people switch to Dodge if they haven't acted and someone throws a fireball at them, I tend to think it's usually fair enough. |
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08-19-2019, 11:16 PM | #30 | |
Join Date: Jun 2019
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Re: Missle spells in ITL
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What's a good ratio of wizard PCs to see survive in proportion to all other PCs? Again that's totally subjective, and will vary from group to group even when following identical rules. If I'm calling wizards weak, it's only because in my experience, if a party of 10 starting characters set out, 7 heroes and 3 wizards, the survivors at the end of the day would normally be 4 heroes and at best 1 wizard. The high mortality rate is surely what gives TFT its edge, and an overall mortality rate near 50% is I think a good thing. But a mortality rate of 43% for heroes and 67% for wizards (that's what the preceding example works out to) doesn't seem to be the intention of the game. Now maybe the three GMs in my group (I was one) were just bloodthirsty and had it in for wizards. What is this thing called "attribute bloat" I keep hearing about? :) We never had that problem with fighters and thieves, let alone with wizards!!! Our wizards barely lasted long enough to earn 300 XP. Was that all on us, or did the rules have something to do with it? And ditto on that more liberal use of Dodge, btw.
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"I'm not arguing. I'm just explaining why I'm right." |
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