Armoury of Antiquity: Questions regarding archaic arms and armor

[Anders]

Ok, while we are at it. I'm building an alternate world where copper and tin are rather common but iron is not (obviously this world operates under somewhat different laws of physics than ours... :) ) Could you make chain mail (and I know some people don't like that term, but hey...) from bronze? Scale mail? Lamellar? Longswords?

[Verjigorm]

I think so. Quality copper alloys have good machine properties. Anyway, here's some stuff I was doing, for snits and giggles on the bus today, four different gear set-ups.

All of these Setups assume a ST 11, HT 11 man. I guess HT 11 doesn't matter, though. Anyway, here we go:

A. Pot Helm, Cloth gambeson(Torso, Arms and groin), leather leggings and boots. Total weight: 18lbs

B. Pot Helm, Hard Leather jack(Torso, Groin and Arms), Leather leggings, and boots. Total weight: 22lbs, 24 with hard leather leggings, rather than just leather.

C. Mail Hauberk(Torso, Groin), Cloth or Hard Leather Sleeves, Pothelm and boots. 37lbs(32 if you reduce the armor weights to a more realistic level).

D. Mail Suit(Arms, Torso, Groin, Legs), Pothelm and coif, boots. Total weight 57lbs(48)

With an Axe or spear and large knife, we have 5lbs of weapons to add to this. A shield will range from 2-50(50 for an iron, large shield).

Man A, has a move of 5 without shield, 4 with a shield
Man B, has a move of 4, with or without a shield. A large shield would make him move 3.
Man C, has a move of 4, 3 with a meduim or large shield.*
Man D, has a move of 3, with or without a shield. **
*using the more accurate weights, C has a move of 4 with anything other than a large shield.
**D has a move of 4 without shield when using accurate weights for mail armor.

These gear set-ups strike me as reasonable. The weapons arrayed against such a man would be:
Axe: 1d+3 cut
Small Mace: 1d+3 cr
Sword 1d+2 cut, 1d+1 imp
Knife 1d-1 cut, 1d-1 imp
Spear 1d+1 imp, 1d+2 imp in two hands.
Self bow 1d imp
Composite Bow 1d+2
Crossbow 1d+3 or 2d(ST 13, takes 6 seconds to cock)
Thrown axe 1d+3 cut
Thrown Spear 1d+2
Sling 1d+1

As you can see, average damage appears to be in the 5-6 range for melee weapons, and 4 with most missile weapons. Mail offers excellent protection to everything but maces. It's of note that Persian, Byzantine and Muslim cavalry, facing heavy cavalry would often use large, powerful maces. Armoured hungarian troops even refused to fight Byzantine cavalry armed with maces on atleast one occassion.

A man seeking a little more protection would likely wear a heavier cloth gambeson under his mail hauberk. In the byzantine empire, a coat of plates(Dan, am I unreasonable in suggesting a similar profile to Lorica Segmentata?) would be worn over the torso. Khazars, Persians(or Khurasan), or Armenian cavalry also could be reasonably encountered with such armor. By the later 11th century, I think great helms may have been coming into style.

Byzantine, Khazars and others who made use of barding, probably favored partial scale or mail barding. In the case of byzantines, there were contemporary Arab accounts reporting the byzantines rode "horses with no legs", implying large heavy mail/scale skirts. These cavalry men would be unable to gallop, and instead simply walked into their enemies, using their horse's weight and their hand weapons to drive infantry before them.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

Ok, while we are at it. I'm building an alternate world where copper and tin are rather common but iron is not (obviously this world operates under somewhat different laws of physics than ours... :) ) Could you make chain mail (and I know some people don't like that term, but hey...) from bronze? Scale mail? Lamellar? Longswords?

I think this was covered in a previous thread. Properly cast and work hardened bronze is as good or better for making blades and armour than wrought iron and low carbon steel. Only high carbon quench hardened steel provides a higher hardness, but was extremely rare in the iron age. We only had an iron age because the raw materials for making bronze were much harder to acquire than iron. If copper and tin were as plentiful as iron then we would never have had an iron age because the incentive to switch from bronze to iron would not have existed. Yes, everything you can make from wrought iron can also be made from bronze and will usually be of a higher quality unless the carbon content and heat treatments are carefully controlled - something that was not often done at TL2. You can't make decent long blades from bronze, just as you can't make long blades from wrought iron. They will either bend or break in their first combat. Treat them as cheap quality.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Sword-dancer

I considered once to built a Viking/northmen in Reenactment who was an ex member of the varangian guard therefore he`d taken his lamellar with home when he retired.

How many US soldiers are allowed to keep their state-issued armour and weapons after they leave service? Why would the "viking" bother keeping it anyway? He would have earnt more than enough to buy a decent mail byrnie. Lamellar was a poor substitute.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

Could you make chain mail (and I know some people don't like that term, but hey...) from bronze? Scale mail? Lamellar? Longswords?

Sure, but everything should be heavier and more expensive.
Dan Howard will probably comment on the mail thing, so I'll just refer you to some of his articles:
http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/login...e.html?id=2565
http://www.sjgames.com/pyramid/login...e.html?id=2418

The articles are all for 3e, so not that relevant.

According to Dan, Bronze should be 20% heavier for equal protection, and only cost 80% of equivalent mail/lamellar prices. (Don't multiply the weight of the padded cloth which should be assumed to be worn under the Mail and part of the weight of such.)

Even though Dan has numbers for other realistic armor prices which are 2x to 3x Basic prices, I would actually disagree that the Bronze Mail/Lamellar should be less expensive to produce than iron/steel, especially considering how it seems to be more difficult to do bronze wire, unfortunately, since I don't have the data to back up my opinion, that's all it is.

[nanoboy]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

How many US soldiers are allowed to keep their state-issued armour and weapons after they leave service? Why would the "viking" bother keeping it anyway? He would have earnt more than enough to buy a decent mail byrnie. Lamellar was a poor substitute.

Mostly because, as far as I know, their equipment wasn't state-issued. The Vikings were a fairly disorganized lot, and like many of their contemporaries, individuals equipped themselves.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by nanoboy

Mostly because, as far as I know, their equipment wasn't state-issued. The Vikings were a fairly disorganized lot, and like many of their contemporaries, individuals equipped themselves.

What? We are talking about the Varangian Guard. They served the Byzantine Emperor. If anyone in the Byzantine army could not afford his own equipment then he was issued gear from the state arsenals. He was also required to keep it in good order and to return it upon completion of service. A Scandinavian serving in the Varangian Guard would not have been permitted to keep his gear after retiring. Nor would he have wanted to. They were extremely well paid and would have upgraded to far better equipment long before their service ended.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Even though Dan has numbers for other realistic armor prices which are 2x to 3x Basic prices, I would actually disagree that the Bronze Mail/Lamellar should be less expensive to produce than iron/steel, especially considering how it seems to be more difficult to do bronze wire, unfortunately, since I don't have the data to back up my opinion, that's all it is.

Agreed. I have long since changed my opinion regarding bronze. It is at least as good as all but Fine or Very Fine steel equipment and would cost more than iron gear.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

I think this was covered in a previous thread. Properly cast and work hardened bronze is as good or better for making blades and armour than wrought iron and low carbon steel.

I'm not sure mail would work well in copper/bronze. Their tendency to work-harden would make for brittle rings, I think. However, given the relative ease with which you can make good bronze plate, there's no real need for mail anyway.

[nanoboy]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

What? We are talking about the Varangian Guard. They served the Byzantine Emperor. If anyone in the Byzantine army could not afford his own equipment then he was issued gear from the state arsenals. He was also required to keep it in good order and to return it upon completion of service. A Scandinavian serving in the Varangian Guard would not have been permitted to keep his gear after retiring. Nor would he have wanted to. They were extremely well paid and would have upgraded to far better equipment long before their service ended.

I see. I saw "Viking," and I thought that you were talking about Vikings in general. Yes, the Byzantines and other Romans had professional armies equipped by the state, but still, I'm sure that a lot of them made off with their equipment after retirement.