11-28-2008, 09:51 AM | #131 | |
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Finland
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Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy
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Could be a job for mythbusters.. Somebody of fairly normal strength and little archery practise should just pick up a longbow and shoot at a target drawing it to "chest" - or to where he can draw it (probably to nose instead of ear or something).. IF drawing he bow fully was something people were proud of - it could be something not everyone could do.. But I agree that there were probably bows of different weight. But 100 to 150 lbs range would likely cower nicely strengths 10 to 18 or so.. Or at least form ST 11 to 17 - If that was the range of bows actually taken to battlefield. |
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11-28-2008, 09:54 AM | #132 | |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy
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On the other hand, no one who could not draw at least a 100lb warbow fully had any business on a battlefield. Since his arrows wouldn't penetrate the armour of the day, he'd be an encumbrance more than an asset. No one is arguing that any Englishman could draw a 150lb warbow. We are, however, arguing that the pool of men who were potential military archers mostly could.
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11-28-2008, 10:12 AM | #133 | |
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Finland
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Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy
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OK - here's somebody shooting a 123lbs warbow - not being able to fully draw it - and it looks painfull and apaprently accuracy is not that good.. As he hits when changing to 90 lbs one.. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=zLlBNnQg6Bs So yeah - 100 lbs is likely min ST 11 - and familiarity penalties if one is not accustomed to the correct technique for longbow. The guy looks at least ST 11.. |
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11-28-2008, 12:34 PM | #134 | ||
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy
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This bone structure does build with practice, though. Any normal man who receives enough nutrition and practices enough will become able to draw a warbow. It's just that few people did so historically and today only a few eccentrics bother.
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11-28-2008, 12:54 PM | #135 | |
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Spain —Europe
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Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy
Long thread (interesting, though).
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11-28-2008, 01:15 PM | #136 | |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy
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11-29-2008, 12:16 AM | #137 | |
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Philippines, Makati
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Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy
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Here is something strange that should be considered. Against regular idea of the "roman" army, the typical byzantine unit would have heavy infantry in the outer layer of the block and archers (1st and last 2 rows) in the inner troops are all archers. Now what is weird is that (acc. to the strategikon) talks about how ranks of bodies add to the force of melee, which is a standard classical method. I get the idea that the archers in the middle are meant to push and fight with the infantry given the method of the training (IDHMBWM but I can't recall if part of the light infantry training included spears). Since the heavy infantry is mentioned to be fully armored (at least the front ranks) and are trained in 1 on 1 combat and not just the regular drills. I think long range engagement is the only tactic usable with archers with the intent to Kill, but more of the intent to harass and allow an ally to move into an advantageous position. Given that there are 2 messengers per unit I bet they coordinate in a way like modern cross fire works. From Procopious' the Byzants focused on RoF compared to their Persian counter parts. I guess it makes more sense if your tactics works with classical army organization and coordination and suppressive fire tactics. |
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11-30-2008, 02:13 PM | #138 | |
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
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Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy
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[EDIT: Icelander provided a historical max range for the 150lb bow, which cause a recalculation of sqrt(Draw)x20 to x30 for Max Range. ] So, if we assume a 150lb bow shoots in the 350yd range, then a bow of arbitrary draw might shoot sqrt(Draw) x 30yds. Or, with the above table: Code:
Draw Points Dice Max Range 36 2.5 1d-1 180 70 3.5 1d 250 113 4.5 1d+1 318 170 5.5 1d+2 391 197 6 2d-1 421 273 7 2d 495 354 8 2d+1 564
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11-30-2008, 08:51 PM | #139 |
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Iceland*
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Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy
Douglas, are we sure we want a strictly proportional relationship?
It is my impression that the curve flattens out somewhat at the extremes, where more energy is lost accelerating the heavier bowlimbs. That would depend on the material used, of course, but for normal wood and normal bow design, I'd say that the middle of the human range yields a better efficiency than the top. In other words, the GURPS method of adding a flat modifier based on bow length to thr damage might not be that far off (except that thr damage for higher ST is too high). The range in the basic rules is a proportional relationship, of course. The methods for measuring range given in sources I've come across vary enough to make it problematic for me to get any sort of feeling for them. The top ranges with 'flight' arrows are very high, but that has zero relevance for combat use. Except that in some cases, the arrow termed 'flight' arrows are probably lethal enough (even if not as good as proper broadheads) and in other cases they are purely sporting arrows. I've seen sources which claim that bodkin arrows achieve better range than Type 16 broadheads. I'm not sure how much of a difference there is. The extreme range for a 150lb longbow in experiments for The Great Warbow was 357 yards with a war arrow. If that's a ST 15 bow in GURPS terms, the ranges given aren't too far off.
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11-30-2008, 09:28 PM | #140 | |||||
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
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Re: Low-Tech Missile Weapon Range and Accuracy
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Still, I think our calcs with the warbow show damage a lot more flat in the human range than I'd have thought...and I consider that a good thing. Most numbers for arrow velocities seem to fall in the 40-65m/s range, which won't be that much of a spread in penetration. Quote:
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