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Old 11-07-2008, 10:26 PM   #51
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Vehicles and Weapons from Fantasy giving me problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenfish
And there's the rub. Until we have reliable ship stats, a ship-chase will be difficult.
Seems like vaguely all you'd need to know is "faster, slower, or roughly the same speed." The only thing different here than car chase is the time scale.

Like in the movie Master and Commander, the Acheron was chasing the Surpise...and Surprise did everything it could so that Acheron wouldn't close by nightfall...and they waved the entire day away with a scene fade.
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Old 11-07-2008, 10:39 PM   #52
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Default Re: Vehicles and Weapons from Fantasy giving me problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole
Seems like vaguely all you'd need to know is "faster, slower, or roughly the same speed." The only thing different here than car chase is the time scale.
Yes, but the vessels in Fantasy display relative speeds that are often ahistorical or just plain unbelievable.

A chase between a 'Pirate ship' and a normal 'Fishing boat' will usually turn out in the favour of the fishing boat. A gargantuan Spanish galleon* is faster than smaller vessels built for speed and fully 33% faster than historically.

*While I understand that a greater sail area contributes to greater speed, a galleon's shape is hardly conductive to fast sailing. The Spanish galleon modelled here is specifically an unweatherly ship that's slower than the race-built models that eventually replaced it.
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Old 11-07-2008, 11:00 PM   #53
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Rising before the sun, Icelander?

The speed issue and fantasy stats in general were a problem in my party recently too (primarily the Dhow vs Pirate issue). As well as the Acc 9 rockets, and the flame weapon that is a Jet, yet is Acc 5. Given Kromm's and Pulver's replies, I doubt there's much we can do with them. My setting IS Fantasy in the purest sense, so I can generally pull numbers from the ceiling. You'll have to do the research, while I'll have to intent some makeshift Spaceships->Fantasy rules adaptation.
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Old 11-07-2008, 11:06 PM   #54
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Default Re: Vehicles and Weapons from Fantasy giving me problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Molokh
Rising before the sun, Icelander?
With increasing age, my sleep habits get more eccentric. I'll probably retire again when I feel that I'll be able to sleep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Molokh
The speed issue and fantasy stats in general were a problem in my party recently too (primarily the Dhow vs Pirate issue). As well as the Acc 9 rockets, and the flame weapon that is a Jet, yet is Acc 5. Given Kromm's and Pulver's replies, I doubt there's much we can do with them. My setting IS Fantasy in the purest sense, so I can generally pull numbers from the ceiling. You'll have to do the research, while I'll have to intent some makeshift Spaceships->Fantasy rules adaptation.
I'll try to post a corrected version of the table later today or tomorrow, based on what I hesitate to apply the noble term of 'research' to, but which might be more believable than what we currently have.
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Old 11-08-2008, 03:26 AM   #55
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Default Re: Vehicles and Weapons from Fantasy giving me problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Molokh
Nitpick: Isn't this the bias that's responsible for all the topics such as Heroic Averages, Cult of Stat Normalization, Dodge and Firearms, Intentionally Cheap HT!, and Haiku about the Overland?

Hey, hang on a sec -
Haiku 'bout the Overland?
Where do we post that?
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Old 11-08-2008, 03:40 AM   #56
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Default Re: Vehicles and Weapons from Fantasy giving me problems

As a side point, the ship stats in Fantasy are probably an argument against vehicle design systems, at least for modeling real-world vehicles. Research is far more likely to produce accurate numbers than any design system operating at a complexity that's practical to use in an RPG.
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Old 11-08-2008, 04:40 AM   #57
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I'll leave the oared vessels alone, mostly because I feel that someone who actually knows the first thing about them do those.

The HPs are lower than in Fantasy, since they were not figured using the Homogenous method. This, however, appears to fit how later GURPS books did it.

Here are the corrected number for the sailing vessels in Fantasy. I'll also put them in their own thread, since I plan to add other vessels to them.

Dhow, Baghlah (90’)
TL: 4
ST/HP: 160 †
Hnd/SR: -3/2
HT: 11c
Move: 0,2/5
Ewt: 34t
Lwt: 128t
Load: 94t
SM: +8
Occ: 20
DR: 3
Range: -
Cost: $39K
Locations: 2M, O, Su
Draft: 5’

Dhow, Sambuk (60’)
TL: 3
ST/HP: 138 †
Hnd/SR: -3/2
HT: 11c
Move: 0,2/5
Ewt: 20t
Lwt: 70t
Load: 50t
SM: +6
Occ: 12
DR: 2
Range: -
Cost: $27K
Locations: M, O
Draft: 4’

The word dhow has been used to describe any of various lateen-rigged sailing vessels that were used in the Red Sea and along the coasts of the Indian Ocean. Dhows are associated with Arab traders in the mind of Westerners, but the vessel was constructed with timber from India and the word itself may be of Swahili origin. The Arabs that sail these craft refer to dhows by names specific to each type, determined principally by size and hull design, but the Western convention of identifying a vessel by its sail plan mean that the four principal types and various subtypes are all familiar to us merely as dhows.

These vessels typically had a raised poop, a raked stem, and one or two masts. They ranged in size from 300+ ton baghlahs and boums to jalboots of only 20 tons. The most common are probably sambuks, about 50 tons burthen (displacing about 70 tons). The two examples given here are a two-masted baghlah of moderate size and a single-masted sambuk with a crew of twelve, both fairly typical for a trading dhow in their size. Note that the statistics assume that the vessel is loaded with cargo. A dhow carrying no cargo can reach speeds of 11-17 knots (Move 0,3/7 or more), but is very hard to handle with such a small crew, suffering a -1 penalty to its Hnd. The draft will also be about 1-2‘ less.

Optional Modifiers: A dhow is not intended to sail against the wind and will make much less speed on that point of sail than a comparable vessel with a more versatile sail plan. Dhows also suffer a -1 to Hnd on any attempt to sail windward. Attempts to tack or veer a dhow are at a -2 to Hnd due to the limited crew size and the lack of provisions for such actions in the sail plan.

Notes: A length of 90‘ and a tonnage of 90 were somewhat incompatible with a crew of only 12. Also, the larger dhows had two masts by the time of the Age of Sail. The speed was fine for an unladen racing dhow (such as those used in the modern al-Shandagha race in Dubai, UAE), but much too optimistic for a laden merchant dhow.

Pirate Sloop (50‘)
TL: 4
ST/HP: 153 †
Hnd/SR: -2/4
HT: 12c
Move: 0,3/6
Ewt: 28t
Lwt: 64t
Load: 36t
SM: +6
Occ: 43
DR: 10/5
Range: -
Cost: $110K
Locations: M, O, Su
Draft: 7’

Pirate Sloop (75’)
TL: 4
ST/HP: 189 †
Hnd/SR: -3/4
HT: 12c
Move: 0,3/6,25
Ewt: 53t
Lwt: 120t
Load: 67t
SM: +7
Occ: 75
DR: 10/5
Range: -
Cost: $168K
Locations: M, O, Su
Draft: 8’

These are typical Age of Sail sloops used by pirates in the Caribbean. The term sleep describes a single-masted vessel with a fore-and-aft rig and the mast further forward than the mast of a cutter. The word acquired connotations of tactical role later on and is today used for a vessel mid-way in size between a corvette and a frigate, but is here used in its original sense.

The sail plan of a sloop is designed to optimise performance when sailing against the wind (known as sailing windward or close-hauled), but also provides a workable overall compromise at all points of sailing. This makes it manoeuvrable and able to escape from ships with a larger sail area by turning into the wind. That quality, combined with a shallow draft, made it a desirable vessel for pirates in the Carribean ocean who were frequently hunted by much more powerful naval vessels. A pirate sloop has a larger crew than a similar merchant vessel, in order to be able to man the guns and board enemy ships.

Two examples are provided. One is a fairly typical pirate sloop, able to surprise and intimidate a merchant vessel but overmatched in a fight with nearly any naval vessel afloat. Generally, a sloop of this size armed for piracy or combat would carry 6-10 cannons, often only 3- or 4-pounders. Edward Teach‘s (the infamous Blackbeard the Pirate of TV and novel legend) Adventure might well have been similar to this ship. The larger one is at the top of the size range for sloops during the Golden Age of Piracy. It might carry anything up to a 15 guns, varying widely in shot weight.

Optional Modifiers: A sloop is optimised for close-hauled sailing and receives a +1 bonus to Hnd when sailing windward. This can only reduce a penalty, never provide a net bonus. A sloop is also able to maintain a higher speed close-hauled than other vessels of similar size and sail area. The size of the crew also gives a +1 to rapid tacking or veering of the vessel. The crew size can be reduced to 25 for the smaller craft and 45 for the larger one for a merchant sloop that does not carry as many cannon or expect to board enemies.

Notes: The length of the ‘Pirate ship’ at 75’ was unusually high for the tonnage given. The ratio of tons burthen to tons displaced was also strange, so I assumed that the weight of guns and shots had accidentally been counted in the Ewt (otherwise the ship couldn’t have carried 12 cannon at all). The speed was so far off that it must have been a typo.

Galleon (130’)
TL: 4
ST/HP: 279 †
Hnd/SR: -3/5
HT: 12c
Move: 0,03/4,5
Ewt: 170t
Lwt: 510t
Load: 340t
SM: +8
Occ: 80+120
DR: 30/15
Range: -
Cost: $345K
Locations: 3M, O, 2Su
Draft: 13’

Galleon, English race-built (140’)
TL: 4
ST/HP: 257 †
Hnd/SR: -3/5
HT: 12c
Move: 0,05/5
Ewt: 133t
Lwt: 400t
Load: 267t
SM: +8
Occ: 75+50
DR: 25/12
Range: -
Cost: $271K
Locations: 3M, O, Su
Draft: 11’

Spanish Galleon (150’)
TL: 4
ST/HP: 341 †
Hnd/SR: -4/5
HT: 12c
Move: 0,02/4
Ewt: 310t
Lwt: 930t
Load: 620t
SM: +8
Occ: 160+240
DR: 40/20
Range: -
Cost: $630K
Locations: 4M, O, 2Su
Draft: 15’

Galleons were large, multi-decked sailing ships used primarily by the nations of Europe from the 16th to 18th centuries. They had three to five masts, with the foremast and mainmast being square-rigged and the last mast using lateen sails. The hull was usually carvel-built. The term ‘galleon’ has been used for vessels ranging in size from around 100 tons to the largest ships afloat in their days which could reach 2000 tons displacement.

Galleons were an evolution of the earlier Carrack and Nao ship types, combined with influences from caravel design which resulted in more slender hull lines than those ponderous vessels (which could have a length-to-beam ratio of 2:1). Galleons were longer, lower and narrower than the earlier vessels and had a square tuck stern instead of a round tuck. One of the most recognisable features of the galleon was the ‘snout’ or head which projected forward from the bows below the level of the forecastle.

Galleons were used both for commerce and warfare from their invention. The popular modern image of them is as Spanish treasure galleons (the gargantuan Manila galleons) bringing home gold and jewels from the New World, but during much of that time they were already eclipsed as front-line vessels. The Spanish, though, did retain some galleons in use until the 19th century.

Three ships are provided here. The first is a fairly typical Portuguese or Spanish galleon, which can be used for any nation at the time. The second, an English race-built galleon has a much lower sterncastle and a nearly non-existent forecastle (it has been ‘razed’). This makes is faster and more weatherly, which proved crucial in naval battles of the time (along with superior gunnery). This ship is based on Sir Francis Drake’s Revenge. The third example given is a very large Spanish galleon, one of the main fighting ships of the Spanish Armada.

Optional Modifiers: Typical galleons, with their high castles on deck, were more stable than the Carrack, but unweatherly compared to later ships. Penalising them by -1 to Hnd (and at the GM’s option also -1 to SR for ships with extremely high centres of gravity) in high winds would not be unfair. They are also poor sailors to windward and suffer a -1 to Hnd when attempting to sail close-hauled. The English race-built galleons avoid both penalties.

Notes: The galleon given in Fantasy was too fast and drew too little water for such a large ship. It also had a crew that was far too small for Spanish practises at the time. Finally, the listed DR did not take into account the sheer thickness of the hull. The higher number is for the keel, which could reach more than 2 feet of oak, and the lower number for the decking and castles.
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Last edited by Icelander; 11-08-2008 at 07:32 AM.
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Old 11-08-2008, 11:02 AM   #58
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Default Re: Vehicles and Weapons from Fantasy giving me problems

I dug out my copy of Vehicles 2e to work out a number of ships, updating the HPto 4e standards based on the mass of the ships in general and handwaving the Hnd bonus. I also did some research on various ship designs, particularly (as that's what I had access to) Viking designs. I had to guestimate on DR, as there wasn't much information on the thickness of the wood used, and in fact my research seemed to indicate that the Norsemen prefered thinner hulls.

Knorr
A cargo vessel that originated in the frozen North Sea waters, the knorr is a shallow but wide ship with a single 15 foot tall mast outfitted with a square sail, and operated by ten rowers. The ship is often 50 to 70 feet long, 25 to 30 feet wide, and is capable of being sailed or rowed upriver as well as making ocean journeys. The ship is steered by a single rudder-oar worked by a sailor standing on a small, raised platform at the rear. All the cargo and rowers are on the ship's main deck, protected from the elements by a tent.
TL: 3
ST/HP: 57
Hnd/SR: -4/3
HT: 10f
Move: 0.05/3
LWt: 33.3
Load: 21.8
SM: +5
Occ: 16
DR: 3
Range: F
Cost: $11.8K
Locations: MO
Draft: 3.2 ft
Notes: Listed move is for under sail. When being rowed without a sail, Move is 0.01/2.

Karve
The karve is the smallest of the Viking warships. It is a utility craft suitable for trade and warfare. No two karves are identical, but the average ship is 70 feet long with a 17 foot beam, owed by 24 oars, with a 25 foot tall mast, and a shallow draft of around three feet, enabling it to be sailed or rowed up rivers. During war, the karve can carry 150 warriors.
TL: 3
ST/HP: 83
Hnd/SR: -4/3
HT: 12f
Move: 0.05/4
LWt: 39.1
Load: 3.4
SM: +6
Occ: 32+150
DR: 3
Range: F
Cost: $48K
Locations: MO
Draft: 3.4 ft
Notes: Listed move is for under sail. When being rowed without a sail, Move is 0.01/3.

Longship
The standard warship used by the Norsemen, the longship is the best known and most common ship to come out of the north. It is a long, narrow ship, roughly 100 feet long with a 20 foot beam, rowed by 50 oars and sailed with a square sail on a 30 foot tall mast. The longship normally carries 200 warriors.
TL: 3
ST/HP: 91
Hnd/SR: -3/4
HT: 12f
Move: 0.05/4.5
LWt: 53.9
Load: 6.5
SM: +7
Occ: 63+200
DR: 3
Range: F
Cost: $63.7K
Locations: MO
Draft: 3.8 ft
Notes: Listed move is for under sail. When being rowed without a sail, Move is 0.05/3.5.

Drakkar
The great "dragon ships" of the Norsemen, the drakkar is a larger version of the longship. The most common ships are 120 to 160 feet long and 20 to 25 feet wide, with a 40 foot wide square sail on a 45 foot tall mast and rowed by 60 to 72 oars. The largest can carry 300 warriors. Like their smaller cousins, these ships are capable of making ocean voyages as well as traveling upriver.
TL: 3
ST/HP: 99
Hnd/SR: -3/4
HT: 12f
Move: 0.1/5.5
LWt: 69.5
Load: 9.2
SM: +8
Occ: 90+300
DR: 3
Range: F
Cost: $85K
Locations: MO
Draft: 4.1 ft
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Old 11-08-2008, 01:59 PM   #59
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Default Re: Vehicles and Weapons from Fantasy giving me problems

tbrock1031: Your listed number of warriors seems excessive. The Havhingsten fra Glendalough, a replica of a 100' longship (the second largest ever found and the largest that has been fully investigated), can 'comfortably' accomodate about 80 rowers. I'm sure it would be possible to stuff slightly more people into it, but it would probably not be desirable for a journey of any length.
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