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Old 11-25-2018, 09:04 PM   #21
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Power Parry aside, I think I might understand the dilemma not with Aura but with Area Effect Aura.

Aura in traditional Melee form can't destroy a weapon before it touches you, because touch itself is what triggers the aura's damage. So you're left with trying to figure out, knowing that it touched you, how much it could lessen damage (via Power Parry) but not contact, which is established.

Aura w/ Area Effect is triggered by contact with the area's outer perimeter though, not the user in the center of the perimeter. If Aura is allowed to damage attacking weapons even when it isn't the Aura-user's turn, then AE Aura might be able to damage incoming weapons on the enemy's turn as well.

In this case of "No Wounding, No Blunt Trauma" contact with the AE perimeter won't destroy the weapon, but it will do non-damage for the purpose of figuring out knockback, an a bullet would probably just have 1 HP and be knocked back 1 yard per point of damage rolled.

Being knocked "back" wouldn't necessarily stop a bullet though (it still has a lot of forward momentum) so it might keep flying toward you. I think KB should just be added to the range. So if you were shooting at someone 100 yards away but your bullet hit a field which knocked it back 10 yards, for all purposes count it as shooting at something 110 yards away.

If that makes enough of a difference on speed/range table to create higher penalties then you could rule that this caused the bullet to miss?
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Old 11-26-2018, 10:49 AM   #22
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Power Parry aside, I think I might understand the dilemma not with Aura but with Area Effect Aura.

Aura in traditional Melee form can't destroy a weapon before it touches you, because touch itself is what triggers the aura's damage. So you're left with trying to figure out, knowing that it touched you, how much it could lessen damage (via Power Parry) but not contact, which is established.

Aura w/ Area Effect is triggered by contact with the area's outer perimeter though, not the user in the center of the perimeter. If Aura is allowed to damage attacking weapons even when it isn't the Aura-user's turn, then AE Aura might be able to damage incoming weapons on the enemy's turn as well.

In this case of "No Wounding, No Blunt Trauma" contact with the AE perimeter won't destroy the weapon, but it will do non-damage for the purpose of figuring out knockback, an a bullet would probably just have 1 HP and be knocked back 1 yard per point of damage rolled.

Being knocked "back" wouldn't necessarily stop a bullet though (it still has a lot of forward momentum) so it might keep flying toward you. I think KB should just be added to the range. So if you were shooting at someone 100 yards away but your bullet hit a field which knocked it back 10 yards, for all purposes count it as shooting at something 110 yards away.

If that makes enough of a difference on speed/range table to create higher penalties then you could rule that this caused the bullet to miss?
Understood, but that's a rather generous incidental effect - too generous to be free. It's also a physics problem I'd rather not deal with in play (which bullets are deflected, does the angle change enough to just be an aiming issue or does it affect damage on this caliber, etc). If the player wants a protective ability, they should buy a game effect that gives them protection rather than offense.
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Old 11-26-2018, 12:01 PM   #23
Andreas
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
Understood, but that's a rather generous incidental effect - too generous to be free. It's also a physics problem I'd rather not deal with in play (which bullets are deflected, does the angle change enough to just be an aiming issue or does it affect damage on this caliber, etc). If the player wants a protective ability, they should buy a game effect that gives them protection rather than offense.
Defensive abilities to represent that would also take a lot of effort for the same reasons The amount of damage reduced would depend on the mass of the projectile rather than its damage. The effect on aiming would depend on the mass of the projectile, the angle at which the attack strikes the aura and the distance between the aura edge and the target! Knowing about the aura would also be a huge factor since it could be compensated for while aiming.
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Old 11-26-2018, 02:16 PM   #24
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
If the player wants a protective ability, they should buy a game effect that gives them protection rather than offense.
Something to take up with the writer of Power Parry, I guess? It isn't exactly "free" since you're sacrificing your chance to do some other kind of defense to do a Power Parry (unless Uncontrollable can power parry n its own like how it attacks on its own) and there might also be a risk of hurting yourself on critically failed Power Parries like you can on normal failed parries.

The section on Stunts in Powers also has "Using Abilities at Default" which doesn't require paying points to fudge some defense abilities based on offensive ones, but you spend FP, need to pass a skill check and only get it a couple minutes.

In both cases the GM needs to judge if it makes sense to be able to use a certain attack to counter another attack, or if the new ability seems related to the old one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
Defensive abilities to represent that would also take a lot of effort for the same reasons The amount of damage reduced would depend on the mass of the projectile rather than its damage.
One interpretation could be that the "ST" of a bullet isn't necessarily just its mass, but also the mass of the explosive force propelling it forward.

A comparative situation would be if Hulk throws a basketball at someone who is doing "Wait > Step+Shove basketball when it gets in my front hex"

A basketball on its own wouldn't have much HP and be easy to knock back. But the force of Hulk throwing it (adding crazy Striking ST) should make it harder to "knock back" enough to completely counteract the damage it could have done, even though technically a "Wait" interrupts Hulk's throw.

If a thrown object hasn't traveled its maximum distance when it suffers knockback, it should keep on going forward up until its maximum distance. This might make the difference between the 1/2D range even if it can't completely nullify forward distance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
The effect on aiming would depend on the mass of the projectile, the angle at which the attack strikes the aura and the distance between the aura edge and the target! Knowing about the aura would also be a huge factor since it could be compensated for while aiming.
Having "Area Effect" on the Aura luckily bypasses concerns about needing to aim at small incoming targets.
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Old 11-26-2018, 02:23 PM   #25
Anaraxes
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Defensive Auras

A reactive defense that attacks an incoming weapon should be powerful enougn to destroy that weapon -- otherwise it will just keep coming and still do damage.

This sounds like it might be a good application of "armor as dice". If the defense rolls low, then you have the extra damage continuing to cause injury. If it rolls well enough, the attack is stopped -- and you've got a damage number with which to assess damage to the attacking weapon. (You might just ignore damage to bullets and just declare arrows as automatically destroyed, but for something like a sword -- or magic sword -- you might care more about what happens to the weapon.)

There's still a factor to tweak thanks to the difference between the cost of IA and DR, as well as how much damage you really want the defense to do to incoming weapons.
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Old 11-26-2018, 04:14 PM   #26
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
Defensive abilities to represent that would also take a lot of effort for the same reasons The amount of damage reduced would depend on the mass of the projectile rather than its damage. The effect on aiming would depend on the mass of the projectile, the angle at which the attack strikes the aura and the distance between the aura edge and the target! Knowing about the aura would also be a huge factor since it could be compensated for while aiming.
When you are allowed to buy a trait with points, you get whatever game mechanic that advantage gives you. You don't have to try to justify the in world physics of it with advanced math.
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Old 11-26-2018, 04:23 PM   #27
naloth
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Something to take up with the writer of Power Parry, I guess? It isn't exactly "free" since you're sacrificing your chance to do some other kind of defense to do a Power Parry (unless Uncontrollable can power parry n its own like how it attacks on its own) and there might also be a risk of hurting yourself on critically failed Power Parries like you can on normal failed parries.
Nah, I don't have an issue. If those rules from Powers are in play (usually the default) it is part of the ability to use it that way. In practice Power Parries aren't really that powerful, especially compared to defenses (such as DR) that always work and don't require either an action or roll.

Quote:
The section on Stunts in Powers also has "Using Abilities at Default" which doesn't require paying points to fudge some defense abilities based on offensive ones, but you spend FP, need to pass a skill check and only get it a couple minutes.
Sure, and again even where offered I never saw this being used much.

Quote:
One interpretation could be that the "ST" of a bullet isn't necessarily just its mass, but also the mass of the explosive force propelling it forward.
Deflecting it is a much harder problem than destroying a bullet. You have to work out for a given angle the amount of force you need to push for that speed of the projectile in the space you have. The more perpendicular the path, the more push you need to give it.

Furthermore, mechanically Aura/Area damage is typically applied when your character takes actions rather than interrupting another character's attack. The area/aura damage would not normally be assessed until after the effect of the bullet has been completely resolved.
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Old 11-26-2018, 07:37 PM   #28
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Defensive Auras

If someone had Crushing Attack 100 (Aura+80% Melee -30%) and someone with a sword did "Rapid Strike, stab+stab", I don't think damage would happen quickly enough to stop the 1st half of the Rapid Strike (the sword is already beginning to damage you as you begin to damage it), but I'm not sure about the 2nd half. It might be that the aura is triggered and destroys the sword making it unable to continue stabbing again, and the attacker would have to choose something else to do as the 2nd half of the rapid strike?

If you had Crushing Attack 100 (Aura +80%, Emanation -20%, Area Effect 1 yard +25%) you can begin to damage the sword before it begins to damage you, so I understand thinking this could completely nullify an attack (independent of Power Parry) if it was enough to completely destroy the weapon.

I still like the idea of subtracting using power parry (perhaps for free, Aura attacks don't cost you a maneuver so why not Aura Power Parry not cost an active defense?) and if some damage gets through despite the attack actually destroying the weapon, just count it as shrapnel from the shards of the weapon? The problem with disintegrating a bullet is you don't completely wipe the bullet's corpse from existence so you might just be hit with a bunch of mini-bullets instead.

Non-injuring attacks won't destroy the bullet, so it's a non-consideration. If your Power Parry doesn't subtract enough damage to get it to 0, it means yours wasn't a powerful enough intervention to completely mitigate it.
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Old 11-26-2018, 10:22 PM   #29
Andreas
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Default Re: Defensive Auras

Quote:
Originally Posted by naloth View Post
When you are allowed to buy a trait with points, you get whatever game mechanic that advantage gives you. You don't have to try to justify the in world physics of it with advanced math.
You do if you want advantages which represent the concept accurately. If you just want any game mechanical effect, then you can of course just randomly pick any advantage in the basic set.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Having "Area Effect" on the Aura luckily bypasses concerns about needing to aim at small incoming targets.
I was refering to aiming done by the attacker. By compensating for the deflection caused by the aura, an attacker which knows about the aura could make it much easier to hit.
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Old 11-27-2018, 12:06 PM   #30
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Defensive Auras

I had assumed that if damage from a Power Parry against an incoming thrown/shot object was enough to cause knockback that the yards deviation would be applied toward the direction the attack came from, as that's usually how Innate Attack works: attack originates from direction of user and propels target directly away from user.

If you're talking about deflecting it to the left or right, that seems like it could possibly force an attack to miss you without completely nullifying its force, but that could cause it to hit an ally standing on your left or right.

Most bullets probably have 3 or less HP meaning 1 damage would be enough to cause 1 yard of knockback, which would make it incredibly easy to deflect attacks to your left or right using Power Parry even if you had no chance at all of nullifying the damage completely by opposing it directly.

Parrying bullets shouldn't be that easy so perhaps the penalties for high-speed projectiles from "Parry Missile Weapons" should be borrowed for use with Power Parry?
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