Need help to flesh out a religion

[Black Leviathan]

Lets start with application.

Your religion was either dictated and guided by an actual divine being that checks in periodically and steers the religion. Or it was the creation of someone who knew the teachings of a few different "prophets" and put together a holy book so that he could live comfortably on the donations of believers.

In the first case "Good" would be subjectively the opinion of an omniscient being of what kind of people he wants in "Haven". Stuff like, don't murder or steal is definitely on the list, but also probably respecting elders and protecting those that are weaker than you. He might also not want you to be egotistical or gossip as those are also behaviors that keep things in his ideal world from running smoothly. He might also have some personal requests. Don't eat swans, Allfather is particularly pleased with how that beast turned out, it was a pain in the ass to get right he doesn't want you shoving it in your mouth. Don't have congress with red-haired people, that whole thing was his brother's idea and he's always regretted capitulating to make him happy. He'd really rather not have any of them in Haven.

In the second case "Good" would be behavior that challenges the religion's ability to be prosperous. Questioning authority would not be good, having other gods, teaching the gospell wrong. Paying 10% of your income to the church would be good, helping the poor directly would be less good than letting the church manage that. War is only "bad" if the church isn't benefiting in power or wealth from the war. And there would be a lot of things that the church would decide as being good or bad on a case-by-case basis because some of them help the church and some don't.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

Sounds vaguely Buddhist, although things could probably be pinched from Gnosticism/Catharism as well.

The implication behind souls being "trapped on a corrupt world" would be that, besides reducing your connections to that world - and the Buddhists are very big on reducing "attachment" - your followers would also be discouraged from having children (to avoid trapping more souls in the mortal coil). Possibly even as far as self castration.

Presumably the demons would tend to divert people with false cults that alleviate suffering and teach a life of contentment, moderation and happiness. .

Unlikely. Contentment and moderation aren't the states when people are most involved in the world. So they'd be more likely to sell overindulgence in physical pleasures, passionate feelings and obsessions, despair, hatred, jealousy, thrill-seeking, infatuation, addiction.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Reaver

Note: I'm sorry if it sounds a little corny. :D

The short form - The Allfather created the world from a sea of chaos. It was supposed to be a paradise. Without his knowledge, he had a brother watching him. When the Allfather took a short break, the brother tainted the world with evil. Death, disease, greed and thousands of other plagues found their way into creation. When he returned, the Allfather killed his brother, but could not reverse the damage. It particularly grieved him that even his children (The mortals) were affected by it. The souls were trapped on the corrupt world and are reborn to go through another cycle. The Allfather created a second world (Haven) which would serve a refugee place. In addition, he showed prophets through visions the path how to leave the world.

The brother wasn't killed completely. He fell into countless pieces, which became demons. Similar to cancer, they were inextricably linked to the world, trying to hold mortals to the world.

The basic belief is that every person is equally composed of light and darkness. Good deeds promote light, bad deeds promote darkness. Only when a person sheds all darkness can he break the cycle and enter heaven.


So the problem is what could be good and bad deeds now. Asceticism should play an important role. So the problem is what could be good deeds now. Asceticism is supposed to play an important role, but that alone would be too little for a religion. Tips on what might fit in well?

What place does asceticism have? For there to be a functioning society it should be partial. Limited to certain classes (priests and monks or equiv) certain times (fasts alternating with feasts) certain specific taboos (things that represent the good god are holy and the bad one are unclean (like having pork and beef fat in musket cartridges; presumably you get the reference or someone will).

Extreme asceticism is possible-if in fact the religion is an obscure society that can survive by contact with outsiders. If they become dominant they will need traditions regarding trade, hierarchy, food, reproduction, use of arms, and basically anything needed to keep them alive for several generations.

What good deeds are considered most important? Do you most emphasize justice? Compassion? Courage?

What signal clothing do you wear. The controversial but aesthetically attractive commentator, Rachel Held Evans, noted that religions tend to identify themselves with headgear (Jews have skullcaps, Amish have bonnets, Muslims have keffiyeh, Sikhs have turbans and they are absolutely not Muslim turbans).

What is your attitude toward technology? Money? Whatever. When is the use of force permitted? Who has the authority to command it?

How are the poor taken care of?

Other things can be thought of, and this is just a start.

A good summery is that a religion tends to have A) Metaphysical claims (those are usually the most variable as metaphysics is always weird whatever ideas one has). B) Ethical Claims. Those can be fairly similar across religions though there will be differing emphasis. C) Cultural Peculiarities: A religion to be truly established will have these. Until they are developed you have a philosophical club.

[Phantasm]

Other related questions:

What is the relationship between the state and the religion?

Is the head of state considered a "god on Earth" (see: Egyptian and Imperial Roman religions) or held as the head of the church (see: the ruler of England being the head of the Anglican Church), or is the head of the religion held to be above and able to crown the heads of state (see: Roman Catholic Church's crowning of Charlemagne)?

Does the religion have an acknowledged leader (see: the Pope, the Dali Lama, etc.)?

Are there sects and orders inside the religion to handle various aspects (see: Dominicans and Jesuits inside the Roman Catholic Church)?

Are there splinter sects which assert their way as the One True Way and everyone else is Wrong (the Shiite/Sunni schism, the Roman Catholic/Eastern Orthodox/numerous Protestant schisms), or are the sects inside the religion on an amicable relationship?

If there are two or more competing sects, are the Reds and the Blues both wrong (it was supposed to be Green!)?

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

Other related questions:

What is the relationship between the state and the religion?

Is the head of state considered a "god on Earth" (see: Egyptian and Imperial Roman religions) or held as the head of the church (see: the ruler of England being the head of the Anglican Church), or is the head of the religion held to be above and able to crown the heads of state (see: Roman Catholic Church's crowning of Charlemagne)?

Does the religion have an acknowledged leader (see: the Pope, the Dali Lama, etc.)?

Are there sects and orders inside the religion to handle various aspects (see: Dominicans and Jesuits inside the Roman Catholic Church)?

Are there splinter sects which assert their way as the One True Way and everyone else is Wrong (the Shiite/Sunni schism, the Roman Catholic/Eastern Orthodox/numerous Protestant schisms), or are the sects inside the religion on an amicable relationship?

If there are two or more competing sects, are the Reds and the Blues both wrong (it was supposed to be Green!)?

Good questions. To elaborate, is there a clerical bureaucracy, perhaps different kinds for different posts? If so do they have heraldry specific to rank and function?

Is there a backlog of legal and theological red tape that differing authorities will claim as precedent ("Rabbi X said thus and so because thus and so, "Well, Rabbi Y said thus and so because thus and so").

How do they inculcate younger members? Do they have rites of passage? Marriage? Birth? Death?

Is the whole religion (or parts thereof) a secret society? For instance Janissaries had their own private variation of Sufiism. If so do they guard a MacGuffin (inevitable, for some reason all secret religions guard a MacGuffin rather than just wanting to be left alone)?

Do they have an artistic tradition (Shen Yun sounds great by the way and is a good example of that sort of thing)?

[Michele]

As others have mentionde, you may take detachment from all worldly passions from an existing religion.

Another facet of this creed will possibly be questionable. If this world is the realm of the wicked, then there is no hope to reform it, to make it better. Thus, for instance, giving all your money to the street children is a Good thing, because you are showing no attachment to your money, i.e. to this world (and note greed is specifically mentioned as evil).
But building a shelter for them, with a soup kitchen, and a school to teach them a trade - this is a Bad thing. Because you'd be perpetuating things of this world, and trying to work within it, while your true objective is to detach yourself from it, abandon it. The shelter, kitchen and school will surely fail, because the evil will worm its way into them. So don't do that. Actually burning your money is Better than distributing it to the poor, because all those poor will find themselves more attached to this world if they have that money.

[The Colonel]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Unlikely. Contentment and moderation aren't the states when people are most involved in the world. So they'd be more likely to sell overindulgence in physical pleasures, passionate feelings and obsessions, despair, hatred, jealousy, thrill-seeking, infatuation, addiction.

That would be the obvious route certainly … the subtle one is to teach accommodation with the world. Remember, in this cosmology salvation is determined by detachment and escape from the material world … learning to coexist comfortably with it is a false victory which looks very attractive.

[jason taylor]

Get a knack for motifs. You can give them metaphysics which don't come off as real. Indeed I have seen in sci fi both ones I could picture someone (at least an alien) believing, and ones which somehow not just revolted against my willing suspension but more overthrew it and conducted a reign of terror against it. Even in the former case they were often rather skeletal because to simulate a rounded out alien Maimondes you of course have to be capable of writing something like he did (just like if you can really invent a working FtL you should go patent it and get bajoolions of dollars out of it). But if you have a knack for motifs you can make up for it tremendously. I am not sure what Minbari believe besides a vague pantheism. Vulcan's idea of "logic" gets absurd at times and, well, illogical. And Klingon's bloodthirsty charm is connected to a religion that doesn't believe the gods exist any more (which sounds kind of like the Sidhe, come to think of it). And you can agree or not about your philosophical opinion of them and it does not really matter because the writers in all cases went out of their way to do a pretty good job on motifs. Just for start remember the Klingon Adam and Eve archetype sacking and pillaging heaven? That sounds rather romantic in a weird sort of way and oh-so-Klingon.

However you are fortunately not trying to invent a religion. You are trying to invent a narrative device imitating a religion.

To immerse yourself, do a bit of study of traditions of various cultures and times. Some motifs have been lost by the wayside and have to be dug up. Other's still exist (Aphrodite's rose hasn't gone away, nor has Athena's owl even though they have been adapted to abstract qualities associated with the original "copyright holders"). In other words be Jungian. that does not mean do a one-to-one borrowing from Jung; that's as maybe. It means get a grasp of the Jungian kind of thing. Most people are not philosophers and even those that are, are not always robots (even Socrates' last act was to remember that he owed a bird to the temple).

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

That would be the obvious route certainly … the subtle one is to teach accommodation with the world. Remember, in this cosmology salvation is determined by detachment and escape from the material world … learning to coexist comfortably with it is a false victory which looks very attractive.

Very few people are going to follow a religion when following it gives them nothing but misery and deprivation.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Very few people are going to follow a religion when following it gives them nothing but misery and deprivation.

Enough will. And even in those cases they usually take interest in tribal feeling. Much like a military service does.